...and I seriously hope Ivan gets his faced ripped off my a chimpanzee but you all are part of the reason I think one day Pang/qzjul are going to lose it and just delete the game.

The political posturing around an event which has serious implications is absolutely retarded. Rather then just continue to pick on SOF I'm going to articulate what is wrong with all of you:

1.) Alliance members are always ignorant of what's really going on because alliance heads work backroom deals in +s IRC rooms where their true intentions are laid out. Then a carefully constructed spinning of the facts if crafted to fit their objectives after the fact(or they flat out lie to the general public)

2.) Evo - Seriously guys. You are running a showboating victory lap about LaF getting re-re-re-re-exposed. Meanwhile everyone fully expects you to get caught doing some pretty shady stuff as well and I'm inclined to believe at least some of the accusations against you are true based on stuff I've seen.

3.) SOL - You guys are massive hypocrites in your moral outrage at LaF as it compares to your attitudes towards Evo.

4.) SOF - Back in the day SOF would just do the right thing and not be worried about SOL/Evo or whoever targetting them after LaF went down. SOF would have had the attitude of "come at me bro" instead of propping up a cheater alliance because of politics.

5.) You all are apparently fighting proxy wars between two groups of unethical players and you either don't know it or don't care because the most important thing to you is your side "winning"

6.) Most alliances handling things "behind the scenes" or staying quiet about it is bad for the game. The LaF situation should be apolitical considering what hanlong and TC did was basically a crime and a violation of the privacy of every single player and forum user.

7.) Added on Edit: I dunno how I forgot this one. But LaF you guys have had cheaters running your alliance since your inception(Gramberto) and every time we hear the promises of it just being rogue members and the new Dons pull the same BS as the old Dons. I genuinely hope you guys clean up your act this time but honestly if I were admining the game and you pulled this cheater bullfluff a second time I'd just ban the existence of your alliance on any server I hosted.

Good post Orkin :)

+1

+1

-10 for mentioning points in public... poor form ORKIN, poor form.

*he must be a forum n00b*

+1

+7 because you had 7 points. fortunately you are not an admin so i can still play in the same tag. lol. :p

So what Leaders of LaF have been exposed? You mentioned 1 from like 98 or 99, 1 from like 2000, and then 2 from 2012?

So I suppose the 20+ Dons between 2000 and 2012 are all cheaters too then, because you stated "the new Dons pull the same BS".

Or are we just going to ignore those 20+ Dons between those two events?

Considering LaF has had about 5 of the top 10 cheaters in Earth history I really don't think the Don's that separate them are really all that indicative of innocence.

LAF is like the state ILL. If you look back at all the leaders coming from there they are either in prison or waiting to be sent to prison- no exceptions. Best example is both of the last two govs from ILL are currently in prison for being corrupt. Every other powerful leader coming from ILL today is just waiting to be caught, tried, convicted, and sent to prison.

ILL is broke- a large part could be form stolen money but also form having to pay for all the political types in prison there.

Ahh so now we are going to use that they had cheaters occasionally, so those 20+ Don's are guilty.

Never mind the fact that any of those cheaters that ever cheated while tagged LaF were blacklisted permanently. I also don't mean exposed publicly, or privately. Xin and Warlordz were IA for basically the entirety of 2001 until the E2025 moved to OMAC.

In that time any past cheater that came to LaF, was investigated thoroughly all the time they played. If they were suspected of cheating maybe they would get to play out the set but be banned from then on, and if they were found to be cheating they would be dropped and banned on the spot. So perhaps LaF let in cheaters but I know for a fact those cheaters' country in LaF were legitimate. Considering the times, that was much more than most any other alliance was doing about multies.

However, please don't let facts get in the way of your smear campaign.

Bull. fluff. I told LaF IA's personally that Mr. Shadow was playing in LaF and was told "Yeah but he's only playing one country in LaF".

As I stated, "So perhaps LaF let in cheaters but I know for a fact those cheaters' country in LaF were legitimate."
When was this? The real Shadow disappeared in 2002, I think.

At that time, it doesn't surprise me. The system was never perfect. However the countries under the LaF tag each belonged to a single and separate human (or so far as writing style, country style, IP address, and any other means available could verify), and if those countries were shady they were dropped or at least were not in the top 10. I know the strat guys always heavily investigated the LaF top 10.

Now prior to about 2002 perhaps more stuff slipped through the cracks, just as they did in most of the other alliances.

There is not a single clean alliance in this game as there is no alliance completely filled with EE era players(In fact I don't think there is but a handful of EE era players).
So if you want to hold an alliances history against them prior to the beginning of EE, have fun because everyone is dirty.

Thats right, LaF has always stood by the principle of giving people who have cheated in the past a second chance (provided their violation wasn't too severe, for example in this case you aren't going to see Hanlong or TC back at any point), but they have always been on a shorter leash for a while etc. as well.

That has never sat well with you, but that has always been our policy and I wouldn't change it. If everyone had your attitude this game would probably have died long ago given how many people there are that have been honest for a long time now but at one point or another have cheated.

Anyone know who Mr Chartreuse was?

Sorry for my ignorance, but what accusations exactly? Furthermore having had both TC and Hanlong on our site for god knows how long reading every last little bit of information, do you not think they would have "outted" us by now if they found even the slightest bit of incriminating information? They could easily have claimed the information was leaked, they wouldnt have been able to resist revealing us.

What's with all the Evo allegations? I haven't been a part of Evo for a long time now, but it doesn't make sense to me that because LaF was caught cheating that automatically means Evo cheats as well.

The only legitimate leader type people I've seen even mention such things on AT seems to be SoF but those same people say retarded things about any admin that they disagree with. Are there other people who actually think this is an issue? I know some people mention slagpit giving out game mechanics, but honestly that's silly because almost all of the mechanics are either based on the old earth formulae (which everyone already knew) or is posted in the announcements for everyone to find out. Honestly, it just seems like poor sportsmanship to see all of these allegations fly around when there isn't anything suspicious happening (it's not like Evo had chat logs from a three member chat where everyone swore they didn't post it on the internet where it was supposedly pulled from with derogatory commentary already present...).

Detmer: everyone knows who Mr. Chartreuse was!

Tertius, you are correct that Evo did not have chat logs from 3 alliances, they only had EE site private messages between 2 players.

Good. Just wanted to reiterate.

11) LCN

How exactly are we defending cheaters? Please be specific or I'm going to call you lots of names. :)

Obama's going to/has been in prison?

I'm not sure I follow your point though Detmer.

I've been open for a long time about my past cheating, (I was removed as Don the first time I held the position due to being caught running tech feeder multies for example, that was back in 2001).

I have also been very open about my time as Mr. Chartreuse. I was never secretive about that because I never cheated in that instance. Mr. Chartreuse never any countries (and he also hasn't been around for years, although some people like Silver still harass me to come play in RD every now and again).

The last time I can remember cheating is over a decade ago (regardless of any arguments Arsenal may try to make that I was cheating back in 06, I wasn't).

My first post on this thread was very much intimating about myself. I cheated in the past and I was given a second chance and I learned from that experience and became a better alliance member, leader, and community member as a result. I was even a very active part of the development of EE.

If orkin was in charge of LaF though I probably would have been forced to stop playing this game back when I was a teenager though.

The thing is LaF is on about it's 10th chance at best.

The thing is Monsters is on about it's 10th chance at best.

See I can insert any alliance name in there and post it without any proof. It's a fun game.

That comment makes no sense Orkin, individuals cheat and individuals are afforded 2nd chances (or not).

Your comment would only hold water if you are somehow trying to claim that LaF has been caught cheating on mass multiple times in the past, and that is not the case.

LaF has had a lot of instances of individuals caught cheating (many of those the public never even knew about, because LaF caught it internally and booted the person without ever making a public statement), as has pretty much every other alliance in the game.

Some may argue that LaF has higher prevalence rates than other alliances, and that may be true given the nature of LaF (culture of very strong netgaining competitiveness, sometimes competitiveness gets the best of some people and they end up doing things like cheating in order to get the upper hand), but LaF has always responded to cheating caught within its ranks appropriately, at least as long as I've been around. I don't see how you can ask for much else.

(Note: once again, I'm in no way trying to make light of what has happened with TC and hanlong, nor am I trying to argue that LaF shoudln't take any lumps over it).

What no MD!

this thread confuses me

I think it's a lost cause. TOM doesn't like LaF and as such anything LaF has ever done wrong will be used as ammo. It's basically like dealing with Dagga. Dagga will talk up allies and put them on a pedestal (even though before they were allies they were the scum of the earth), and any enemies are the scum of the earth. This will remain true to these kinds of people no matter facts or anything else that may prove to interfere with those beliefs.

When you include Gramberto as a reason to show LaF guilty of cheating, you know the person's reality is so warped there will be no reasoning with them. I guess the year or more of tank bots on LaF by Gramberto wasn't enough to show he wasn't a part of LaF.

At least his posts target everyone and target the BS going around unlike most people. Most people are so blinded by their loyalty that they refuse to see 2 sides of a coin.

Its still earily. Who knows what coverups or illegal acts he could be tried for in the future. I never said they have all already been caught and found guilty. My money would bet in the future he will probably suffer the same fate as the others. Just going on past experience. From what i can see ILL has not been too clean since poor old Abe.

Gov Edgar.. probly the last decent Gov IL has/will had/have.

And NO, i did not vote for Palen/Mcstupid.

I have to say TOM is right on this this.

H4- I agree with him. I also played as a teenager but I did not cheat. Not saying people can't change but to me I wouldn't stake the reputation of my alliance on it. To each their own.

Perhaps if LaF wasn't so big on 2nd chances they would have a lower rate of well known cheaters.

2 Cheaters in modern times? Hanlong being one of the Dons which pushed for reforms of open door policies and one of the Dons and Head FRs that general speaking always put the alliance ahead of his own netgaining?

Yeah, because so many in LaF seen it coming from one of the more straight laced dons.

Don't be ignorant.

By definition LaF would have a lower rate of well known cheaters if we didn't give second chances (to be well known, you first have to be caught). It is whether they re offend that is the concern, and as previously stated those individuals are watched more careful for the first while (for example: I'm pretty sure they stopped watching me with hawk eyes a long time ago heh).

Well you were booted near the beginning of a set and didn't come back for a couple of sets. You were watched and monitored in the IA forum for a few sets. I would say you had eyes on you for a solid year before official monitoring ended. You weren't back in leadership for at least that long, though I have no clue if you wanted or were asked before that.

As stated earlier stats guys like Eugene for instance I am sure monitored longer at any time you were netgaining well.

I know none of this will shake a fools resolve to believe their beliefs, but the facts are these. While LaF gave several second chances, and indeed were burned sometimes and of course always took the reputation hit, I remember many times that it worked. I know several players who gave up their cheating ways and played legit because LaF gave them a home when no one else would. I know several players that otherwise would have no home and left the game if not for LaF.

LaF also took in many players that were legit but came with lots of baggage(Finglofin(sp??) and others that generally would earn the alliance that housed them suiciders.

So think what you will, and damn the facts. However here are the real facts if you wish to have educated beliefs.

I think no one is going to make the claim that LaF was squeaky clean(although they tried). I also can guarantee that there is 0 squeaky clean alliances, and unlike many alliances of that time LaF actually tried to remain clean rather than just make wild claims that they were clean like many others.

H4 - I like you, I like locket too. I am not saying LAF should disband. I'm saying given LaF's history they should just accept that they should rightfully not be taken at their word for a good long while and a tag killing for a reset isnt something you guys should be upset about either. My main point is that one of the things Earth lacks and has lacked for a long time is a community that polices itself.

Let me give you a story from TLK. Cheating was not tolerated by the community there. One age one of the most powerful countries (country = alliance there) was found to be running Multics and the community took it upon itself to punish them. They stopped all wars dropped 7 consecutive main armies and killed 200+ players in the span of about 5 minutes. That type of incident never happened again. In Earth the community values politics over rules so whatever happens, half of the community will stick up for the people who get caught and there is no deterrent for future cheaters.

Anonymous (TC I presume?), your recollection of the past is somewhat cloudy, but its OK, because mine is too. Laf probably did not have any more cheaters than anybody else, theirs were just better at it and high profile. When the list of cheaters that everybody can name includes a lot of Laf heads - people are going to remember it.

I don't like Sof (I despise Ivan in particular because he is a bully), however - I accept the fact that they are not really culpable to any extent in this Laf fiasco. From here on, I'll judge Sof based on their actions and not their affiliation with dubious allies.

Ironically, this may end up working to Laf's long term advantage (at least for their netting members). Without HLWs mega-manicical desire to dominate the server, you guys will probably get to start netgaining again.

Either way, I (and I think most of PDM) are over it. You guys have fun trolling each other, I'm going to go hack into Tisya's underware.

By the "community" I mean the 10 people who make all decisions in this game because alliances are their personal fiefdoms.

Pang referred to Anonymous as Symac the other day, don't know if it is true but I don't believe it is TC.

It's not Tc he was around before the cheating was found out.

who knows, he does not really sound like TC now that I reread him

As a leader I always work to keep my members informed on everything that goes on and also make sure they know what my thoughts and opinions are. If you ask SoFers how transparent I have been with them this entire set with all events I am sure they will agree.

I allow people to state their opinions and make decisions based on general consensus.

I think it's important for alliances now to involve members as much as possible with alliance affairs so that they are part of everything that happens.

There's nothing we can really do about it. I honestly do hope Laf has cut ties but, I think it may be wishful thinking :(

I won't entertain assumptions, guesses, or accusations of who I am. If someone is really interested they can private message me and ask. It's not a secret, but I have spent many sets being quietly anonymous.

However, I don't like when someone makes statements about any alliance without use of facts, and I do know LaF somewhat better than any other alliance.

Funny how Orkin talks like he is involved in every alliance and knows everything when he isn't part of any of those alliances and just nitpicks the whiny babies and the talk that spills over to AT which is now just a glorified kiddy playground where people just cry about the game and whats wrong with it. The players of this game 8-10 years ago would kick all of your arses for being babytimers.

The great oracle Orkin, I like the ring to that, except you probably aren't as close to your assumptions as you perceive yourself to be. For SoF, which is all I will speak for (I won't go to the realms of stretching and speaking for other alliances like you) Sov has been 100% transparent and has told any and all willing to hear whats going on and his thoughts. I have to say he is the most engaged and open leader I have been around.

Oh boy an ex-IX player. That's an alliance with a history of honor, honesty and integrity.

hey at least IX gave everyone a common hate :p
they knew their role on the server and played it to perfection ;)