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Detmer Game profile

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4283

Jun 25th 2010, 18:28:33

... is an entirely oudated concept.

When alliance operated under strict political confines that the leadership of all alliances bought into and enforced suiciding made sense. Then if you used special attacks you were effectively suiciding because you could expect to die immediately. Often times a country would self-delete or drop all acres which is how the term "suicide" really came to be. That was when people thought there was no justification for a standard strike other than one standard strike in return.

When alliances moved to land:land, and acknowledged that not all attacks are equal, that is when the whole notion of retaliating in one specific way went out the window. Land:land retals say "you may have hit me once, but we're not equal until I get complete revenge." This was a serious point of contention amongst alliances and caused a number of ideological rifts between clans. This is when standard policy that all alliances believed in became antiquated. 1:1,2:3,3:6,4:10,5:farm/kill were the old standard but a number of alliances chose to adopt independent policies and enforced them or didn't as they were able. This debate raged for years and in some circles is still a debate. Even with land:land retals most alliances abhored retaliating with special attacks. This was for a number of reasons - one it is hard to quantify apples and oranges. Is an SS worth one AB or two? Does it depend on the results? Is it FAIR to attack in some way I might not be anticipating? Mostly it was because people didn't want to have to defend themselves "appropriately". they would rather use collective political power to strong arm people into operating within their confines. This worked to the benefit of many who rubbed each others backs for a long time and just exploited the rest. I certainly know I was involved in that system.

Now, however, things are different again. An increasingly large fraction of the population are fed up with the status quo. People are tired of overbearing policies driving players from the game. There are alliances who choose to farm individuals and clans that they consider easy prey. That is of course something they are allowed to do but it is not something they are ENTITLED to do, which seems to be a point of contention. When people reject their farming, when people stand up to them and say no more, they get upset if that is done in any fashion beyond standard land grab retals. You can't blame them for being upset, I suppose. They have it ingrained in their minds that millions of turrets protects your country from all harm. They feel like they signed up to play a game where you are only allowed to use troops and tanks and missiles and spies if one alliance formally declares war on the other on the game forums.

That mindset is not the rules of the game though, and people realize that and are responding to oppression any way they can. Reacting to repeated land grabs in any way you see fit is legal. It is within the rules. It is fair. Suiciding, or perhaps a better term is "full force retaliation" is perhaps only suicide if that brings around their death. Are the people who farm willing to kill every country that they attack and responds that way? They are welcome to, of course, but I can't imagine that is a way to achieve maximal networth, which I believe to be their general goals.

Full force retaliation is here to stay. It is not suiciding, you don't kill yourself and you are just trying to send a message and go on your way. It may not be officially policy of anyone, but it is not breaking the game and it is not unjust. It is a reaction to being back into a corner and getting poked with a stick over and over and over. If you don't like it, don't provoke it.

wari Game profile

Member
223

Jun 25th 2010, 18:32:20

Confirmed.

Forgotten1

Member
834

Jun 25th 2010, 18:45:14

If small groups of countries does it, they'll get killed.

Creating wars and what not, generates fun in the game.

I agree with you to an extent, if an untag that gets farmed to oblivion day in and day out does it, it's just and no one gets butt hurt.

If a tagged member of an alliance just suddenly got tried of being hit 4-5 times a day by different alliances, and decide to pick one at random and do a 'FFR' then like the old policies, said alliance should be responsible for the act and pay reps. Because they failed to control their own members.

If a tagged member of an alliance was farmed day in and day out by different countries of one alliance, and decide to pick a random country from that alliance, that was not involved in the farming, and do a 'FFR'. Then that's a problem, and said alliance should be held responsible and pay reps, because they failed to control their own members.

If an alliance as a whole was tired of being hit day in and day out by one alliance, and decide to do a 'FFR', that's just a war, and it might as well be an FS. There's no issue, both sides go to war, and the issue either is resolved or continued the next reset.

But, if an alliance as a whole decide to use special attacks as a 'FFR' on regular land grabs, then that should be considered an act of war and no one should complain when they log into a dead country.



Now, the real argument is where the line is. Some people can condone being hit 5 times a day, some people gets hit once and decide to launch a parking lot party.

Also, 'FFR' launching countries/alliances should expect more Farming coming their way as a retaliation method used against 'FFR'.


That's just my 2 cents.
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Slagpit Game profile

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Jun 25th 2010, 18:47:30

This entire thread is bullfluff.

Forgotten1

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Jun 25th 2010, 18:57:00

Originally posted by Slagpit:
This entire thread is bullfluff.


That's what AT is based upon.
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Detmer Game profile

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Jun 25th 2010, 19:00:11

Why should an alliance pay reps for a FFR? If they acknowledge they disapprove off FFRs and want to suck up to the person who farmed them, they can pay reps. There is no reason why they necessarily should pay reps for retalling someone who farmed them.

Why is it wrong to FFR someone who didn't actually attack you but is in the same alliance as those that have? Our tags are nothing more than political flags showing who we are affiliated with. They serve no purpose other than to allow us to coordinate our politics. In the same way an alliance is responsible for an FFR, so are all members of an alliance for farming. The connection between the countries is identical.

Also, since when is it the job of an alliance to control its members? An alliance will suffer whatever consequences it will for the actions of its membership, however controlling members is something that some alliances do more than others, and not something it has to do at all. When I played in m0m0 there was no central control at all. Each country had independent authorization to do its own FA work if it wanted to. I personally will never tell anyone anything they HAVE to do. I make suggestions that they can follow or not. I can't make them participate in a war. If they don't choose to do that they don't have to be invited back into the tag in game. I doubt anyone actually in PDM leadership would MAKE anyone do anything either. If a member is a problem they can be removed from our political affiliation in game.

I agree, a clan-wide FFR is what people generally consider to be a war. Its funny how people seem to be more averse to a single person doing an FFR than an entire clan. It somehow becomes noble if everyone does it. There is no ingame designation for what constitutes a war however. That is just a player-invented label for a group of actions. There is no reason a clan-wide FFR would happen and it couldn't just be a huge retal. The response is up to whoever got retalled to decide.

Farming people who retal you in a way you don't like because you farmed them is exactly what would happen if they hadn't retalled at all... all you have done is give people MORE reason to FFR. Congratulations.

Detmer Game profile

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4283

Jun 25th 2010, 19:01:11

Originally posted by Slagpit:
This entire thread is bullfluff.


Thank you for the enlightening response. I clearly see things differently now.

Forgotten1

Member
834

Jun 25th 2010, 19:10:29

If someone FFRs, then they should expect to be FFR retal'ed and killed.

Then the other alliance might consider FFR kill an act of war and go to war.

Mooo
Forgotten
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NOW3P Game profile

Member
6503

Jun 25th 2010, 19:13:32

Can someone summarize the Great Wall O' Text above in 10 words or less? I really can't be bothered to read all that....

Detmer Game profile

Member
4283

Jun 25th 2010, 19:16:56

Originally posted by Forgotten:
If someone FFRs, then they should expect to be FFR retal'ed and killed.

Then the other alliance might consider FFR kill an act of war and go to war.

Mooo


Yes, that is a very distinct possibility.

I am just clearly stating the existing divergence from the political structures that have been around for so long which many people seem to be so deeply entrenched in that they seem to think it is a part of the game, and not something the players have developed in their best interests. I want to bring to light that others have rejected these policies which seems to be something that people are missing in some of the ancillary discussions on the matter on this board. I think people who have nothing but flames to say about the topic are just scared that their perfect little netgaining boat is being rocked and they aren't willing to stand up and fight for their boat.

Edited By: Detmer on Jun 25th 2010, 19:18:54
See Original Post

Slagpit Game profile

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Jun 25th 2010, 19:55:58

I'm sure you won't see things differently, because you certainly sound like one of the True Believers with that enormous essay that no one asked you to write. I called your post bullfluff because you combined a bunch of different types of suiciding and used that to draw incorrect conclusions. I suppose the best way to go about this is by telling a bunch of anecdotes.

Suppose you started late in primary and another country starts farming you. I mean actual farming instead of the "3 hits in 72 hours" nonsense. You message that country asking him to stop and buy more defense so the other countries near you are better targets. Even after doing that, that country still continues to grab you. Your best way out of this is by warring the offending country. I didn't say suiciding because it's not suiciding. You're using special attacks to solve your problem by hitting the country responsible for them.

But wait! That completely goes against the theories posted by suicide aficionados such as yourself. Clearly FULL FORCE RETALIATION is needed here! Hitting the country that hit you isn't enough. You should drop land so you can suicide on that country and on all of his allies. That's the primary equivalent of clanmates, after all. You don't want to solve your problem. You want to send a message!

Most of the country to country conflicts in this game can and should be settled between countries. If you're an untagged on an alliance server that happens to get landgrabbed by country X from tag Y, suiciding on tag Y will not solve your problem. Your problem is that you're not good enough to play untagged. FULL FORCE RETALIATION against a clan won't do anything. Besides, what's the difference between getting grabbed one time from nine countries or getting grabbed nine times from a single country? Your country ends up in the exact same state.

Unfortunately, the game rules currently allow one country to ruin the sets of many countries. I tried it once. It was shockingly easy. Suiciders don't seem to understand what mass suiciding leads to, or they do and they simply don't care. When rival disbanded and spend several sets suiciding on laf, laf responded by killing their untagged countries before they had a chance to suicide. Imo it was the correct play for laf. It's impossible to buy up enough defense to protect yourself. Unfortunately, many innocent countries were killed. Suiciders forced LaF's hand though. After all, if every untagged country is potentially a threat, shouldn't you farm them or kill them until they are no longer a threat?

Suppose LaF beats EVO in ANW and EVO feels like they can't compete. EVO then sends a few members to suicide on laf and they take out 20% of LaF's TNW. Is that the type of gameplay we want to encourage?

All of the above, perhaps with substituted names, has happened before. Suiciding almost always makes the game worse for everyone. It's a form of griefing and the game mechanics which make suiciding so effective are not needed for 1v1 conflicts or for alliance:alliance wars, so we're going to do everything we can to shut this behavior down.

I could go on but it's honestly not worth it. If you think that I'm "scared of my perfect little netgaining boat being rocked" you are completely ignorant.

Detmer Game profile

Member
4283

Jun 25th 2010, 20:17:26

I never mentioned dropping land other than in the origins of the term suiciding... if you read through my suggestions regarding land dropping you'll see I have said you should NEVER be able to drop land from the game.

I also never said someone should go after allies. I have said that is a reasonable choice if you can't hit the country directly involved. I have been using full force to mean AB, GS, BR, missiles, harmful spy ops. I am sorry I wasn't more clear on my meaning with that term.

I think encouraging others to attack your enemies to get ahead while not something that should be encouraged is not something that should be discouraged either.

If you have an issue with game mechanics that allow people to stock up and hit those above them, maybe the mechanics available to stockpile need to be reassessed. I certainly think that someone should be able to AB someone much larger than them if they buy the tanks.

I certainly think LaF was justified to kill off countries prematurely if they think it posed a threat. I personally wouldn't stand for indiscriminately killing untags, but I wasn't playing at the time. I certainly don't believe in attacking a country with anything other than a land grab unprovoked, which is sounds like the Rivalers were probably doing. I do believe using that special attacks to simply pull someone down is a manner of griefing unless that would put the country ahead in NW. If country #2 ABs country #1 and takes #1 I think that was a smart move personally. (which is why I wouldn't be opposed to EVO doing it to LaF)

and I would also like to add my comment wasn't just for your benefit Slagpit

Thomas Game profile

Member
1763

Jun 25th 2010, 20:32:13

So who AB'd my country?


I know TAN knows.

Edited By: Thomas on Jun 25th 2010, 20:32:25
See Original Post

TheORKINMan Game profile

Member
1305

Jun 25th 2010, 20:33:40

"FULL FORCE RETALIATION against a clan won't do anything."

I actually really disagree with this point Slag. I've found it to be a highly effective method of getting larger alliances to back off. When they did back off they got left alone as well. If you zombie terrorize them long enough they will eventually come to the negotiating table and leave you alone or work out some amicable arrangements.
Smarter than your average bear.

Thomas Game profile

Member
1763

Jun 25th 2010, 20:39:14

Originally posted by TheORKINMan:
"FULL FORCE RETALIATION against a clan won't do anything."

I actually really disagree with this point Slag. I've found it to be a highly effective method of getting larger alliances to back off. When they did back off they got left alone as well. If you zombie terrorize them long enough they will eventually come to the negotiating table and leave you alone or work out some amicable arrangements.


Or they'll just go to full blown war.

Patience Game profile

Member
1790

Jun 25th 2010, 20:53:00

Originally posted by NOW3P:
Can someone summarize the Great Wall O' Text above in 10 words or less? I really can't be bothered to read all that....


You owe me a new keyboard for the one I ruined snorting root beer out my nose when I read that... ;)
I cannot see your signature - so if it's witty, put it in a post instead! :p

archaic: Patty, if it was you wearing it, I'd consider a fuzzy pink pig suit to be lingerie. Patty makes pork rock.

TheORKINMan Game profile

Member
1305

Jun 25th 2010, 20:56:44

Thomas: I'm not going to write an essay on guerilla tactics here but suffice it to say a determined group of 5-10 people can badger the high rankers of an alliance with zombie restarts that never stop ABing/GSing/BRing/spying until they come to the table out of frustration.
Smarter than your average bear.

Forgotten1

Member
834

Jun 25th 2010, 22:09:45

Couple points

If #2 ABs #1 in a primary/express/tournament game, there's no way to track it, and that's smart playing to win the reset.

If #2 Tagged X ABs #1 Tagged Y (or X) to win the reset. Then that is considered an action of unprovoked special attack, and I'm pretty sure the rest of that is to be worked between both alliance's FR if pacted, and up to the players themselves if not.

If Tag X Special Attacks Tag Y to create a way to win a title, then I'm pretty sure even if pacted, the FRs won't have to do much, it's a definitive act of war and we can all see fire works the next reset.




The thing is, how many special attacks justify for a message?
One? Two? Three? Maybe some alliances will let that go.
Four? Five? Six?
Seven? Eight? Nine? Ten?
Twenty? Thirty?

Where's the line?
THERE IS NO LINE.
Forgotten
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TAN Game profile

Member
3402

Jun 25th 2010, 22:10:21

Originally posted by Thomas:
So who AB'd my country?


I know TAN knows.


LOL

I had to look through the news to confirm:

Jun 25/10 7:56:02 PM AB ONE MORE TIME FOR THE LAST TIME (#222) () French Fries in Kemos Pooper (#29) (SancTots) 91 B
Jun 25/10 7:56:00 PM AB ONE MORE TIME FOR THE LAST TIME (#222) () French Fries in Kemos Pooper (#29) (SancTots) 93 B

hahahaha poor Thomas. i could make a pretty good guess who that is, but sadly, i can't be certain.
FREEEEEDOM!!!

Thomas Game profile

Member
1763

Jun 26th 2010, 0:45:59

Originally posted by TAN:
Originally posted by Thomas:
So who AB'd my country?


I know TAN knows.


LOL

I had to look through the news to confirm:

Jun 25/10 7:56:02 PM AB ONE MORE TIME FOR THE LAST TIME (#222) () French Fries in Kemos Pooper (#29) (SancTots) 91 B
Jun 25/10 7:56:00 PM AB ONE MORE TIME FOR THE LAST TIME (#222) () French Fries in Kemos Pooper (#29) (SancTots) 93 B

hahahaha poor Thomas. i could make a pretty good guess who that is, but sadly, i can't be certain.


You sure you want to follow through with this lie, TAN? Think it through and get back to me.

TAN Game profile

Member
3402

Jun 26th 2010, 1:01:25

Originally posted by Thomas:
Originally posted by TAN:
Originally posted by Thomas:
So who AB'd my country?


I know TAN knows.


LOL

I had to look through the news to confirm:

Jun 25/10 7:56:02 PM AB ONE MORE TIME FOR THE LAST TIME (#222) () French Fries in Kemos Pooper (#29) (SancTots) 91 B
Jun 25/10 7:56:00 PM AB ONE MORE TIME FOR THE LAST TIME (#222) () French Fries in Kemos Pooper (#29) (SancTots) 93 B

hahahaha poor Thomas. i could make a pretty good guess who that is, but sadly, i can't be certain.


You sure you want to follow through with this lie, TAN? Think it through and get back to me.


I have no reason to lie to an anonymous person on the internet who at times calls himself Thomas, Sir Thomas, TC, tcollins or Panther.

If it's wari, he hasn't mentioned anything insite about it, nor has he posted details of his country, nor has he even claimed he's running a country.
FREEEEEDOM!!!

Thomas Game profile

Member
1763

Jun 26th 2010, 1:06:58

http://www.boxcarhosting.com/.../viewFile.php?fileID=1653

Hmmmm, pretty weird that your alliance with this unknown person just happened to be canceled after the AB hits on me. Also interesting is that he kept all his other pacts.

But you don't know who it is....


And my fluff is the size of Ron Jeremy's.

TAN Game profile

Member
3402

Jun 26th 2010, 1:12:34

Err, was that the right file?

http://www.boxcarhosting.com/.../viewFile.php?fileID=1653

??

If you are going to get a screengrab of his allies that aren't even in PDM then make an accusation against PDM, you really don't care much about your credibility as a human, do you?

Anyways, I'm not a leader in PDM. I don't police what's happening, looking out for possible untags that have the intent to suicide Thomas. Nor do I police who our members are allied to (seriously dude, who does??).
FREEEEEDOM!!!

Forgotten1

Member
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Jun 26th 2010, 2:50:27

LaF does police who our members are allied to, and will definitely act accord to our internal rules.
Forgotten
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wari Game profile

Member
223

Jun 26th 2010, 3:46:54

Thomas,

It's been about 9 months since we've last talked. Have you blamed all your life's problems since then on me? I'm only here because certain folks (you) keep bringing my name up.

btw, Panther? Cute. Very cute. Always good to be so universally disrespected you feel the need to change your identity....two or three times.

I'll be on the grassy knoll if you need me.

Dragon Game profile

Member
3712

Jun 26th 2010, 3:58:21

LaF should put a leash on Forgotten's recruiting spams. I am thoroughly annoyed with that crap on every server I play.

I won't come to this server to netgain, and if I do come, I obviously won't come alone.

Edited By: Dragon on Jun 26th 2010, 3:59:56
See Original Post

Slagpit Game profile

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Jun 26th 2010, 4:34:55

Originally posted by TheORKINMan:
"FULL FORCE RETALIATION against a clan won't do anything."

I actually really disagree with this point Slag. I've found it to be a highly effective method of getting larger alliances to back off. When they did back off they got left alone as well. If you zombie terrorize them long enough they will eventually come to the negotiating table and leave you alone or work out some amicable arrangements.



When has an alliance ever changed their policies because of suiciding? At best, you can probably get one alliance to put on you DNH for the set. What about all of the other alliances? What about next set?

TheORKINMan Game profile

Member
1305

Jun 26th 2010, 4:39:26

Maybe it was a long time ago and things have really changed since then Slag, but it worked back then. When we were done virtually every major alliance had us NAPed or DNH. They didn't change their policies, they just agreed to NAP or DNH us because hitting us was not worth the pain in the ass that we were :P
Smarter than your average bear.

Slagpit Game profile

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Jun 26th 2010, 5:02:34

Sounds like you were declaring war instead of suiciding?

enshula Game profile

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2510

Jun 26th 2010, 5:25:33

i cant remember what tag orkin was, maybe teamhunters?

H4xOr WaNgEr Game profile

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Jun 26th 2010, 5:47:22

1jetPS

Forgotten1

Member
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Jun 26th 2010, 6:04:26

TheORKINMan,

Honestly, man to man, you have issues.

If you want to keep the grudges, go to Team Server (Cause that's what 1A from E2025 became), and go harass RD there.

*hides from RD*
Forgotten
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nimrodix Game profile

Member
737

Jun 26th 2010, 6:10:38

Ahh where is mad mike.
he knew how to run an untagged that could just ruin your reset.

enshula Game profile

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2510

Jun 26th 2010, 6:11:55

did they use stock stealing? in that they financed future hits from previous ones?

and dropping land a lot too i guess

nimrodix Game profile

Member
737

Jun 26th 2010, 6:12:50

sheesh get some tanks already

NOW3P Game profile

Member
6503

Jun 26th 2010, 8:01:35

Originally posted by Patience:
Originally posted by NOW3P:
Can someone summarize the Great Wall O' Text above in 10 words or less? I really can't be bothered to read all that....


You owe me a new keyboard for the one I ruined snorting root beer out my nose when I read that... ;)


Root beer, huh? I think that's a first. I've been blamed for water, milk, beer, and Captain once (that was pretty ugly)....but never root beer!

Detmer Game profile

Member
4283

Jun 26th 2010, 13:45:38

Forgotten, I agree, there is no clear line. I don't think that people have really gone very far with this. I am pretty sure the line will evolve over time to where people make their point and others don't think it is worth it to kill them.

SnowBridge

New Member
7

Jun 26th 2010, 19:21:36

Where are all the group suicides at

Sir Balin Game profile

Member
652

Jun 26th 2010, 23:42:59

Originally posted by Thomas:
http://www.boxcarhosting.com/.../viewFile.php?fileID=1653

Hmmmm, pretty weird that your alliance with this unknown person just happened to be canceled after the AB hits on me. Also interesting is that he kept all his other pacts.

But you don't know who it is....


And my fluff is the size of Ron Jeremy's.


lolwut on every level

SakitSaPuwit

Member
1168

Jun 27th 2010, 0:50:14

we are playing a different game this set
but what do i know?
I only play this game for fun!

GorGo Game profile

Member
48

Jun 28th 2010, 3:06:21

This question might just shed a little light on everything.... Whats FFR? :)

galleri Game profile

Game Moderator
Primary, Express, Tourney, & FFA
14,317

Jun 28th 2010, 5:05:16

Personally, I think some powerhouse clans are currently pushing the buttons of other clans to see how much further they can go.
And trust me I am not going to control my members anymore. So if they feel the need to flip out. So have it.


https://gyazo.com/...b3bb28dddf908cdbcfd162513

Kahuna: Ya you just wrote the fkn equation, not helping me at all. Lol n I hated algebra.