okay so I don't troll much on these threads as i think for the most part people just tend to talk crap and it gets annoying

To the PDMers that hate LaF, its cool it's your choice, i have nothing against any of you but then again i'm not an earth history major that focuses on old stuff, i'm sure there are people in LaF that don't like PDMers, it happens its a game people play differently and its normal for differences to occur

to TAN's comment about LaF should have accepted the pact you offered i reply the same, LaF offered you a pact also, we're both the same on this point each offered eachother's prefered pact and the other rejected it, simple as that

i would greatly appreciate if people would not judge an entire alliance for comments of it's members, when i see Balin talk about wanting LaF's netting ruined perpetually i don't all the sudden think i need to troll pdm. Each clan has an official voice and that is usually left up to the President position, if the president comes out and flames and rants then fine judge the clan for that, if another member or leader does then take it as that, not as official voice of the alliance.

Tan and i have already spent alot of time on line talking about this subject and will probably end up spending alot more before its all said and done

In the end its a game and some of these politics are starting to take away from it, games are meant to be fun

Parallax
Don of LaF
Flame me hate me whatever i don't care, icq is the easy way to get ahold of me
432101859

ya...

I'm a firm believer that actions have consequences, but reactions are a better way to understand how someone really feels about an issue. The reaction by PDM's leadership to the continual suicides on LaF over the last year or so is nothing short of astonishing.

I never got why PDM wouldn't sign a pact with suicider clauses in it... if you're signing a pact with us, there should be NO suiciding at all, thus, the clause never gets used. The only reason why the pact could possibly be rejected by PDM is because they feel they want to have people suicide LaF. It's not fair to LaF members to be paid for less than what they lost, and a core PDM belief seems to be that suiciders are the fault of the defender, not the alliance harbouring suiciders.

We use robust suicidiner terms with FDP's and no one ever has any issues, because we don't suicide eachother. And remember, all of our terms always go both ways. We practice what we preach.

I did offer a "suicider clause" that was similar to yours but less anal.

No one else has insane suicider clauses like you, so why should we sign them?

You lost out this set, not us. If you had signed the terms I proposed, then you would have gotten close to the compensation you would have gotten with your own terms.

Parallax, we but heads from time-to-time, but you are really the ONLY person in LaF who has been kind from the get-go.

And I'm sorry, the actions of your leaders reflect the attitude of your alliance.

Pang is the THIRD person in a leadership position in LaF to be condescending to us, while you are the only one who hasn't.

How many messages have I sent you about the behavior of your leaders and their attitudes? Don't you guys get it? I've been trying to tell you for the last few goddamn sets and you won't ever listen.

Once you get more responsible leaders who know how to hold their tongues, we might move on.

you and i get along fine =)

please refrain from insulting my leaders, as pdm has had a few (members or leaders i don't know their positions) on the boards posting similarly

Maybe PDM should work on stopping their members from suiciding?

that should be task 1, no?

The only reason PDM is even on my radar is because of the continual suicides....
You will remember, TAN, that I even pushed to get other issues resolved earlier in the set so things didn't flare up.... the only time I get flamey is after an issue already happens


and wait -- was TAN WHINING to para about me? :p after he complained about LaFfers whining? :p

Hypocrisy strikes again...

I made a complaint in private earlier, but it seemed to have no effect.

How else do you want me to lodge a complaint? You want me to write a letter, notarize it and send it FedEx?

Pang, you are not dumb enough to believe we could have stopped thatguy before he sucided? He went rogue. He went crazy.

I've been in PDM the whole set and there has never been a plan to suicide LAF. I'll be the first to say thatguy was a dumbass for it and I assure you he will never be let back in PDM, but as far as working on stopping members from suiciding? That's impossible to prevent as we cannot read the minds of our members. However we can kick and ban them, which we did ;)

I'm just saying it's a little hypocritical to criticize LaF for 'whining' when you're doing the exact same thing. I'm not saying you're wrong to complain, but to complain about complaining, then complain yourself... well... that's just a little out there :p

and requiem: all of my issues revolve around the response and the mindset shown by PDM'ers, such as TAN and Balin, who both believe that this is LaF's fault, when we were just sitting there minding our own business.
I realize people do go rogue, but when that happens, we expect the alliance to step up and make the effort to make it right. This is something that PDM does not do, and that is why I am lambasting you guys out here.

To be honest, I would rather have this whole issue not happen in the first place, or PDM be a responsible enough alliance to understand their role and responsibility in dealing with the fallout from this issue.

We ARE taking the blame for it and paying you back more than you deserve (we aren't pacted, so by all rights you should only get 100% l:l).

I offered extra to quell this very flaming you're doing now.

Take some blame for allowing yourselves to overindulge in tag protection and running extremely low defenses. Every time I tell you guys the reasons why the suiciders suicided, you blow it off.

The suicider who led to the two wars cited your POLICIES for the reason he suicided.

This suicider cited your LOW DEFENSE for the reasons.

But of course, you will ignore these reasons and continue merrily chopping down trees until you get a suicider again, and then wonder why people suicide on LaF.

Requiem, set up the mind-reader so we can start predicting when people will suicide, because obviously we can't "control" our members from suiciding as if it's possible!

like i've said numerous times....

it's not our fault at all here. If it was some untagged guy who did it all by himself (no aid either), then for sure, our fault... these posts wouldn't exist.

PDM gave this player the means to attack us. If he was untagged, we'd have watched for him, upped our defense and done other things to make ourselves ready for it.

This was a surprise attack by a PDM tagged member, who had the entire set in the PDM tag to prep for it.

LaF IS ready for the kind of suiciding threats we have from untaggeds and spamtag/sketchy alliances, however, when a "reputable" alliance like PDM helps him make his country for 6 weeks, and we have NO knowledge of his intentions to suicide us, we can't really prep for that.

THAT is why it is not LaF's fault, TAN, it's because PDM gave this player ALL of the means to be able to hit us unfettered. He had 17m jets. If we carried enough def to bounce that, we would no longer be netting. Your logic is all wrong. You allowed him to become the country that caused that much damage, the fact that you still try to dodge responsibility is just disgusting.

Clear enough?

Bada bing, TAN has spoken yet again. Do you guys not wonder why it is that only LaF and NA ever get suicided on? LaF are despised for their farming, draconian politics, and general deuchery; NA are rampant cheats. 95% of the Earth community hates LaF, the rest are in LaF.

LaF constantly whines about suiciding (the suicider petition is STILL up on the BC home page, lol), yet is blind to their own roll in creating it. Maybe if you actually connected the dots you could deduce that your own policies are part of the problem.

oh cmon, we only have 5% of the earth community? i'm sure half the folks in primary don't give a rat's ass, and more than that in ffa.

I don't hate LaF. I just hated SolidSnake

see, that's 1 Collab member that doesn't hate laf, your numbers are going DOWN archaic

:p

archaic is missing the point like usual....

and the suicider petition is moot... jolt didn't care, and the current staff is moving forward with anti-suicider measures regardless to make it more balanced

1 country being able to really hurt 10-15 is just NOT balanced, no matter how you slice it. The only people who believe this is balanced are those who suicide others. Suiciders are usually people who don't care about the game, so why do we allow them to be able to hurt people who do care about it so easily? That's a question I've been asking for years.

Also, archaic, you are blind to the fact that other alliances DO get suicided.
Evo does all the time, omega does, I think TIE did a few days ago.... it's not just LaF.... it's all netters with skill. LaF just gets hit more because we have the best countries and the most enemies. We are fine with that, however, when it does happen from an alliance's tag we expect them to take responsibility... that is all we are saying, what we have said all along, and what we are continuing to say. If you think that's whining, whatever... your opinion is pretty much worthless to me in terms of politics, as was proven in Team last set :p

Dave,

There is always defense against suiciders and you know this, its just netting alliances like yourself don't want to spend a lil extra in order to make yourself safe... you tend to like to take your chances. As far as I've seen the mods of this game are continuing on a path to make this game just more rounded for netters, are you even considering how to make it better for wars?

did you not read my last post?

We can and do defend against threats that are known to us.

When a player spends the entire reset in a protected tag buying jets, to the point where they get 17m jets and attack FROM a reputable tag, we can't realistically protect against that at an alliance-wide level. Like I said, suiciding is TOO easy and TOO powerful, and we need to look to ways to curb it, just like we need to look for ways to curb farming, land trading, etc.

If you want to get into a discussion about the game's mechanics, that's fine, but do it in a new thread.
We have done many things to make it better for fighters, as we felt they were good changes (ie declaring peace with countries immediately after they die) and our goal is to balance everything for everyone, so that one side/strat/theory doesn't work above all others, and right now it's unbalanced. If you believe it's balanced, by theory is that you're a warmongering suicider who loves to ruin people's fun... because that's the side that which has the balance tilted in it's favour right now, and it's been that way for the last several years.

I'm just saying it is going in a pretty biased fashion if all of the main admins of the game are in the alliances who as you say.. are always being suicided on. Remember any changes you make in this game to drown the effect of suiciding will most likely effect many other factors of the game too.

Also, I am a strong believer that there is politics involved with suiciding. Alliances should have eyes on their members, if they see they are just holding jets all set and not really being involved actively in the alliance you netting alliances should not just ask for reps. Go to war.

If you prep in good tag protection for 6 weeks and dump stock, there's now way you can defend that as a netting alliance. Like Dave said, you wouldn't be netting. Should we all carry 15M turrets and 2M tanks while netting "to be safe"?

Most of the countries getting attacked were all-x countries. As long as untaggeds are under control for potential suiciders, why should they have to worry? That's why we have tag protection.

Anyway, the point of this thread isn't to start another flame war. I agree with parallax that you shouldn't judge an alliance by what a couple members say.

I don't blame all PDMers for the suicider, nor do I carry a grudge to them, as long as you clean your own house.

Yes, LaF are bullies and we farm untaggeds and all that stuff, but PDM or other alliances aren't policing for untaggeds. At least if you are, let us know lol.

As Goku proved... even having 15million jet PS needed to break dosn't stop them... so why bother as an all explore in having sufficient defense if it dosnt exist.

THIS THREAD NEEDS MORE FUN

Pang I do agree we should have killed him. Maybe if I were more active I could of helped hit him but honestly what exactly are you trying to achieve here by posting all this? I'm not totally sure but I do know you're annoyed by suiciders, we get that. Am I sorry he did it and caused all this rift, sure I am, but at this point all this talk just brings out all the trolls ;)

At least have the decency to admit that 20k+ acres needs more than 1M worth of defense! Right? Now don't misunderstand me and think I'm saying its your fault but you must at least recognize that. Remember 'Tag Protection' is a political term, not a fail safe way to defend your land.

heh im sure he would agree with that considering hte minimum military reqs are higher then that :) But in the case of suiciders coming from a clan there isnt enough defense to be had.

Yeah and he wont have the opportunity to do it again because he has been blacklisted. What else can you expect?

Starting a flame war, esp from a dev, is just bad taste IMO.

Not that I condone suiciding; I just never quite understood why it has to responsibility lies solely with the original tag for a suicider. IIf LaF is so concerned with suiciders, they should be more than willing to take the time to kill said suicider. Instead, they seem to be happily netting away as per usual waiting to be suicided on some more and simply demanding for reps and hoping the other alliance will get rid of the suicider. Yes, the alliance the suicider came from should be responsible; but that shouldnt mean the alliance that got suicided on can just sit on its fat ass and enjoy the show. If you're truly concerned about protecting your members, you should be participating in eliminating the threat.

Then again I never did understand the politics behind treehugging alliances. I mean, you whine and whine about being suicided on and just continue to sit there as that suicider is still very much alive and kicking. Did it ever occur to you that the suicider might strike again? I mean it fine to go bug the alliance for reps, but being complacent and placing all the responsbility on the other alliance is just silly. That suicider is a threat to well-being of your own netting experience; go kill it before it strike again.

LaF, this arm-chair policy on suiciding of yours is kind of silly. You might want to consider revising it.

mmm requiem, I'm a player as well... I can distinguish the difference between my responsibility as a developer and as a player... if you can't, well that's your problem. Just because some people can't make that distinction doesn't mean that I should stop playing the game I love (so much so that I spent my time helping remake it) the way I want just because people like yourself don't like my politics. That has never been an issue in developing the game.

As far as suiciding:

Like I said, we're happy to kill suiciders and prep for them when they are in the open, but when PDM shelters a guy all set and then he hits us, we can't really prepare for that...

the only way to do that is to pre-emptively kill PDM every set... is that what we should be doing? Pre emptively killing anyone who may possibly have a suicider in them?
That doesn't make sense either....

Because you're a netting clan, and you most likely don't want to have to deal with situations like the current one?

Who cares about a stupid suicider clause, unless you're really worried about your members acting like asshats anyways? Oh wait....it appears you should be.

thanks NOW3P.... someone finally gets it :p


it's a clause that should never be executed anyways, so it should be moot...

Pang,

I have a huge problem with you coding 'anti-suiciding' measures into the game.

What.. your bullfluff policies aren't enough? LaF really needs to be untouchable?

Here is an idea.. why don't you code attacking other countries from the game? Because that's basically the idea isn't it?

I don't like your attitudes. You seem to want to be able to sit up the top, push your weight around, and just have everyone accept the status-quo.

Well, I for one am sick of seeing the little guy getting pushed around, sick of the small clans and untagged newcomers getting farmed out of the game.

Players have to learn that getting grabbed for being landfat is not the end of the world, it's actually part of the game, and this lesson needs to be taught.

pang: after speaking to thatguy, 2 out of the 3 countries he hit so a far cry from the 10-15 you are trying to claiom here) had sub 1 mil defensive pointd.
yes, that means less than 1 mnillion jets TOTAL to break them.
tell us again how that's running a reasonable defence?

LaF are a major key to changing how this game is played through their attitudes and playstyle. You as the primary developer of the game and as a member of LaF should be pushing to change the attitudes of the members and leaders of your clan.
Instead of having retarded policies that suit you and screw everyone else, how about tone it back some, be reasonable to deal with, and lay off the farming small clans and untaggeds. If you don't your own clan is going to simply push any new members you gain from facebook or whatever straight back out of the door.

and guy wasn't sitting doing nothing all set waiting just to suicide on LaF. he was highly active whilst we were warring NA as well.

Sheesh...I don't know whether to get you guys a room...or a set of wedding rings. Why doesn't LaF just wipe PDM out for good, and settle this whole thing? I mean, it's pretty obvious PDM is feeling feisty after all....

It's very troubling that a game administrator gets involved in this sort of tit for tat on the boards.

VERY troubling.

now3p: I just like stirring the pot a lil
and yeah, I'll admit I got my blood up...
I'm kinda like the little italian guy who's just seen the rocky movie, walks out and sees the big black dude waiting to get popcorn...
eddie murphy ftw :p

now3p: I just like stirring the pot a lil
and yeah, I'll admit I got my blood up...
I'm kinda like the little italian guy who's just seen the rocky movie, walks out and sees the big black dude waiting to get popcorn...
eddie murphy ftw :p

I'd also like to point out that yes he was our responsibilitygiven he suicided from our alliance.
however pang as I recall when someone detagged, waited 72 hours THEN suicided, you tried to claim it was our fault too.
can't have it both ways.

No one cares what you think dagga.

I'd invite anyone who is going to try and attack me to at least get your facts straight...

because you're all entirely wrong, I'm debating deleting posts because you all have obviously not read everything I've said and are just making fluff up to try and attack me for whatever reasons you all have

I invite you to look over my record before attacking me as a game developer... and get the fluffing game dev fluff off this thread, as it's a political thing. I said that numerous times...

I'm honestly beginning to feel that you all aren't worth my time anymore, if any time we begin discussing suiciding curbing measures, everyone goes to the "OMG GAME DEV IS TRYING TO MAKE THE GAME BETTER FOR HIS FRIENDS" argument immediately. If you can't see that it's not balanced right now, then you're blind. BALANCE is the key. If you halftards who keep spouting anti-pang fluff can't realize that, there's no hope for you.

Drow: I have no clue what the hell you're talking about.... you have 0 accurate facts on any of your posts in regards to ingame issues. You just seem to be, like you said, stirring the pot for no reason other than to bash a developer/laffer.

I've been really thinking a lot lately why I've spent so much of my time working on this game, at the cost of a lot of other things, when this type of response is typical anytime we try to change the status quo. I can't find a good answer.

So if people want to talk about the issue of PDM vs LaF suiciding, I'm game for that... if you want to talk about suicider changes, take that to B&S... a political thread is no place for a game-dev discussion, as I said NUMEROUS times.

Bullfluff Pangaea.. You're a game developer. It can't be seperated no matter how much you want it to be.

I'm one of a team of 3 game developers, with a staff of about 10 people who all go over the changes before we put them into the game...

there are tons of checks and balances in place even if I ever wanted to do that...

anyways, you've completely soured me on developing the game for the time being... fluff working on the facebook stuff, I'm going to do some paid work instead.

some kind of plan to just kill PDM off every reset until they (we) disband?!?!

uh....simpsons did it.....

Unoriginal.
Uninspired.
Unreadable.

You've just won the triple U.

Pang that really wasn't the point of my statement, well not completely. I do hold you and every other developer to a higher standard, why shouldn't I?

Anyways its my opinion and if you don't like it that's not really my problem. Not being a jerk here but meh.

okay this thread is not here for people to just flame eachother

some people aren't happy with Pang's post but they do seem to enjoy playing the game that he and other's have worked to recreate/save, if you are going to comment on pang's dual role of player and admin then i ask you to be considerate enough to respond in these threads to his opinions as a player and save the trolling about his admin activities for the suggestions board please as that would atleast make sense and justify the opinions about pang keeping things seperate

fact is he has been and will hopefully continue to make changes that will benefit both warrers and netters, are we all going to like all the changes ? no obviously not. but lets atleast try to all be thankful for the time he and the others have put in to help save the game we all love (or are just addicted to) their time has been pretty short so let's give him a little more time to make some changes come to decisions etc. before we as players pass judgement


on a side note i would ask that PDM members that use the phase "suicided because of LaF policies" to contact me as i would actually like to know what EXACT policy it is

for those of you that don't know i lead laf a little different then some and am very approachable but i do ask for specific details

TAN and I will continue to work on this issue

Whats the point, of that, game admins can think it but not speak it is your arguement.

fact is the game was built by people that care about the game, if you doubt their integrity or the integrity of the game, do us all a favour and fluff off.

I like how you spell favor, its so cute :)

What, you mean correctly?

and we wonder why people will leave the game?

*sighs*

case in point LaF will KEEP farming small clans, nearly formed clans, and Pang doesn't care. He will KEEP defending their actions

BTW PDM Pang PDM only HAD 7 hitters who COULD hit thatguy because of HUMANITARIANS. he WAS 24million net. Most of pdm could not hit him because of that. All most all, if not all of PDM, had no stock left.

But hey, it seems you have a lot of anger towards PDM. What will you do if PDM Dissapears because of this bullfluff? "Hey every member now becomes LaF's landfarm to repay back next set what thatguy did this set!"

You really think that is going to go over well Pang? You think that will keep players in this game? I don't know what is being discussed between Tan and your Don, but i'm assuming it is going to require a hell of a lot from all or most of PDM's members

Tell me this Pang...answer me this....it is OK for YOUR members to farm untags....but if another country FARMS YOUR members you come crying?

Because all I have to do is look at your members' countries news and see how many times they hit untags.

This whole thing makes me not want to play anymore. Pang doesn't see the reason that thatguy hit your countries and feels it is ALL PDM"s fault.

If i'm forced to pay reps i'll delete my country and quit playing, i'm not going to spend half or all of a set playing a country that is in all aspects useless and benifiting a member not of my own alliance.

I'm sure PDM will keep you updated on our methods to telepathically read our member's minds so we know when they are going to go ape fluff

finally, it is sad that politics have consumed this game. Do 1 thing wrong, and all hell breaks loose. People forget that this is a game. Bad things happen in a game and people franically need to get over it. There are FAR worse things in life then losing thousands of acres in an online game.

But politics will rule the day and PDM in the end will get royally screwed

Dave, get a grip on yourself, you sound like H4. You are completely missing the point here. The threat of suiciding is the only political leverage smaller tags have with LaF and NA.

When I was doing FA for TKO, rank and file LaF members trampled over us even when we had a pact. "Oh, well just do your retals then" - Its pretty tough to net when you are retalling against a supposed ally (that outnumbers you 70-17) 4-5 times a day.

The threat of suiciding was the only thing that ever actually got anybodies attention. Suiciding is bullfluff, but being forced to suicide because its the only way to enforce your tag is even bigger bullfluff.

I have never suicided on an alliance server, I have no desire to. If I did, I would never bother to do it to Omega, or TIE, or ICN, or even SOF (who I also dislike) . . . when somebody suicides one of those guys its usually because of a very specific individual beef.

LaF - you guys have placed yourselves at the top of everybody thats ever played in a small tag's theoretical suicide list. You're the only tag that gets suicided on general principle.

archaic:

what political leverage?
LaF and PDM didn't have any issues... this wasn't a political sanctioned hit -- at least that's what PDM claims, and I have no reason not to believe them. A political suicide is just the start of a war, and that's a completely different situation.

I think you're missing the bigger point.
How is it fair for 1 player to ruin the rounds of 10-15?
This guy had 17 MILLION jets... he was in a tag and we could have had no way of knowing he would hit us

he could have broken almost anyone in the game, so when people say "get more defense" I always think "hey... that person can't do math!" because if you actually calculate it out, the cost to defend against suiciders like most warmongers claim netters should makes us need more defense than the warring tags, and puts us into negative income fast. Run the numbers... I know we did :p


also, LaF never comes out and talks about the suiciders that hit us normally from untagged land or spam tag land
this is only about a tag whose protection helped this guy get big, didn't get on our radar at all, he was able to suicide from their tag. Whether their leaders endorsed it or not, PDM allowed this player to become a threat to LaF and then didn't really pick up the pieces to help clean up the mess until LaF already handled it on our own.

I made my first thread because PDM was running NA targets rather than running their own suicider that hit LaF. They claimed that they had no countries to hit the suicider, since he was too big, but they had 15 countries in range to hit the suicider, and some were continuing to hit NA, not even waiting to do a joint KR with LaF. That is a big slap in the face from PDM, which certainly warranted a post, IMO.

on a separate note, I am all for someone who is farmed or pushed around to be able to suicide... I always have been -- there needs to be some checks and balances for that stuff -- but to say it's OK for one country with a week of effort & 1 aid package to be able to destroy many countries' hard work, put in over 2 months, is just backwards, and it's caused MANY good players to quit. Some of the game's best and brightest.

Come on now, thatguy was our #1 hitter in our efforts against NA. He was not sitting there idly amassing jets for his suicide. He was actively hitting and participating in every way like a normal member would in our war with NA.
It wasn't until SOL stepped in and very quickly delivered us from NA's grasp that "thatguy" for some reason decided he was bored and suicided. He already had tons of jets as he was a breaker like myself. It is not unusual for a country to have upwards of 10 million jets when you're the 2nd biggest country in your alliance in the middle of a war. It's also not very hard to buy up 7million more jets when something snaps in your head and you probably had some sort of stock left...

Please, Please stop saying that we "harbored a suicider". Saying something like that just totally ignores the fact that he was a normal, functioning, participating member up until the very day that he decided to do what he did...

yamnahahahhwahhaahah!