Please provide the server with a more balanced game. The FFA server is a "Hit yourself or you lose" server at the moment.

With the current system, Self Farmers can hit over 500k Acres.
With the current system, Self Land Trading can hit over 100k Acres.


With the current system, SS/PSing other player can hit only around 30k Acres.
With the current system, All Exploring can hit you only around 30k Acres.


Can we please have a game where player interaction and SS/PS's are actually useful and able to keep up with other land gaining methods.

Walding's bottomfeeders were 15k to 18k acres 20 days into the set. Are you saying that he only could have gained another 12k to 15k acres in the next few weeks? Or are you using your own limitations and assuming that everyone else is equally impotent?

I'd say that 40k to 50k acres from bottomfeeding is quite possible in FFA. In fact, FFA bottomfeeding appears to be easier than bottomfeeding on the alliance server, so whatever landsizes people get in alliance, I'd say can be matched in FFA. The reason good players don't bottomfeed with countries on FFA to grow to the sizes that you can attain on alliance is that there's no reason do play FFA and netgain with 16 individual countries exactly like its the alliance server. If you're going to play FFA, you're probably doing it specifically because you can play 16 countries instead of 1.

SS and PS are useful and can grow pretty well. They can even keep up with landtrading up to around 50k acres or so when landtrading starts to pull ahead, but at considerable economic cost. That's due to landtrading being exponential growth, whereas bottomfeeding is fairly linear.

WAIT

CALL THE PRESSES


ON THE SERVER WHERE YOU HAVE MORE THAN 1 COUNTRY, YOU BENEFIT FROM USING THEM TOGETHER

Okay, So even If I give you the 40k-50k that your claiming SS/PSing could get you. Thats still only Half as good as Self Land Trading. And 1/10th as good as Self Farming.

Which again proves my point. The server is not balanced.

Thats only if your goal is to gain land, not if your goal is to netgain. Alliance server gets countries up to 200m networth every set. How many of the 200m networth countries each set in FFA have done that without being FAd or benefitting from buyouts?

Just because I can get twice as much land, doesn't mean I will get twice as much networth.

Troll somewhere else.

Because we need another one of these threads? We have already have like 3 in as many days

If that was the case, then I wouldn't have a problem. But at the end of the set, Self Farmers and Self Land Traders will take up 80%+ of the top 50, 90%+ of the top 25 and probably all of the Top 10.


As I've said, the game is unbalanced. If you can hit your own countrys to reach 100k-500k acres, why shouldn't SS/PSing other players get you those same results, or atleast results competitive enough to compete with the 100k-500k Acre Self Farmers.

Most of the best netters self-farm and self-landtrade rather than go all-explore or bottomfeed, so it makes sense that most of the top 100 would be countries that have self-farmed or landtraded.

They are the best netters ONLY because they self farm and self land trade.

The players that are putting countries into the top 100 without Self Farming or Self Land Trading are just as skilled or more skilled in my oppinion.

And I think its time that THOSE players have some way to compete with the Self Farmers / Self Land Traders for places in the top 25 and top 10.

They are the best netters because they also outperform the crappier netters on other servers, too.

Self-farming and self-landtrading alone cannot get you into the top 10. You must do buyouts and/or FA to get a country into the top 10. Because I don't do either one, I don't have a chance at the top 10. But unlike you, I don't whine about it. I choose not to do buyouts and FA, just like you choose not to landtrade.

This is not an arguement Rockman. I don't need to debate anything with you.


FFA is Unbalanced. And EVERYONE knows it. Even you.


Self Farming = 500k+ Acres, Self Land Trading = 100k+ Acres. SS/PSing other players = 40k-50k.


Doesn't matter how many ways you try to argue it, the numbers don't lie. When was the last time a NON Self Farmed country finished #1 in FFA? What % of the top 10, top 25, top 50 and top 100 have been Self Farmers in the past 5 sets?

Its Unbalanced.

4 of the top 10 last set did not self farm

On the other hand, when was the last time a country made top 10 without being FAd or having a buyout done for it?

Self-farmers would be destroyed in wars, but self-landtraders should do very well in wars.

This may be a somewhat slanted way to approach the perceived problem, but has anyone considered simply removing DR effect for all non-land attacks?

i.e. GSes etc, whether failed or not, no longer causing a country to go into DR or removing it - only *successful* SSes/PSes/NMs *do*.

This would make high land a lot riskier, since you can no longer depend on GSing into DRs to kep the land, while at the same time making it more tempting to farm alliances at war, making policing function something more than "oooohh yummy free land"

DR is a completely different issue Meep. One that has also been raised several times.


Nothing has been said yet that would make me feel any different about the unbalanced land sizes on the FFA server.

This was my suggestion in a previous thread that had mixed reviews:




I still believe this would work great in FFA. It would make Midfeeding better than Bottom Feeding. And Both would be able to compete with Self Farming a bit better.

Of course, those bonuses wouldn't happen if you were hitting your own countries though.

baaah, then give me more countries and make it a real free for all. 60 countries would be fine. don't limit one aspect and not others. Give me 60 in alliance and I'll be glad to play there (even 16) but to play 1 country and sit in a war chat room for hours to play your turns for 1 country is not for me and I'd guess many others that play ffa, so telling people to play a different server is nonsence.

Or you could simply farm "since there's no such thing as topfeed" the countries that land trade. IF they had no easy way to avoid giving good gains due to being in DRs.

But of course, that's hardly as simple as agitating for rules change.

LOL, not so simple when your clan is allied to all or most of the land traders. Though it's tempting even with 2 to 1 retals.

My suggestion above would make Midfeeding more benifietal than bottomfeeding, and would decrease the farming on new players. It would also bridge some of the land gap that the Self Farmers clearly have an advantage on. In the long run, making the server more balanced and more exciting.

earth 2025 was at it's peak when the ffa had unlimited countries per player. cheating by using bots to run the countries is what caused the decline of earth 2025. keep the bots out and there should be no problem.

I still stand by my complaint and my suggestion regarding unbalanced land sizes in FFA.


Interesting Story... Jade Penn beat Rockman on the Express Server. So he obviously has netting skills. My Problem is, Why is he forced to Self Farm or lose on the FFA Server?

I wasn't netting, and Jade Penn still beat me by only 150k networth. I'm guessing that Jade Penn's goal was networth, whereas mine obviously was not.

I was aiming to set the land record, and without self-farming or even hitting a country more than 1x all set, I broke the previous land record by over 10k acres.

If I'm only good at gaining land by self-farming, how come I broke the land record by 10k acres on Express without self-farming?

Congrats Rockman for setting the record.


This isn't about your accomplishments though. I was simply proving a point. The BEST netters do not all Self Farm or Self Land Trade.

There are several great netters that are not given any options beside hitting themself to win. And since alot of them don't believe it is within the spirit of the game to hit themself, they are kicked to the curb and are not given a legitimate chance at competing.

Getting rank 13 on Express doesn't make you one of the best netters. In fact, running out of a stockpile as TMBR with about a month left, as Jade Penn has done, in fact makes you NOT one of the best netters.

Here we go with the "My fluff is bigger" slant on things.

Finishing 13th is pretty good in my book. I've never played the Express Server, so I don't know the dynamics or difficulty of it.

funny that Second and third last reset didnt selffarm, yet second wasnt that far off winning

Is that supposed to prove that the Land Sizes in FFA are balanced and that Self Farming and Self Land Trading are not over powered?

Nobody is going to buy that.

Using countries cooperatively with landtrading for netgaining is overpowered is Dedly's assertion.
Using countries cooperatively for mass FA and buyouts is overpowered is Warster & my assertion.
Using countries cooperatively for warring is also overpowered is my assertion.

Why should we address landtrading, but not address mass FAing, market buyouts, and cooperative killing by one person using more than one country of his own in killing an enemy country?

Landtrading has its downside - much higher number of buildings required, meaning higher turn cost for building and higher money cost for buildings.
Mass FA has its downside - whatever one country gains, another country by the same person has to lose.
Market buyouts has its downside - whatever one country gains, another country has to lose.

On the other hand, use of countries cooperatively in a war effort, where's the downside there?

Sounds to me like we need to ban the use of multiple countries from one player in killing enemy players. There's simply no downside to this strategy that has tremendous upside.

Correct.



Correct.



I Disagree Completely. Using your countries to Interact with other players is what this game is about.

Directly from the Main Page:

"Earth Empires is a free browser based strategy game where you take control of your nation's military and economy. Command your country's military to attack and defend against your enemies. Execute attack strategies to relieve opponents of their resources and land. Strategically invest in technology to outpace the economies of other countries. Ally with your friends or make new friendships by joining a clan. Conduct military operations, govern your country and build your empire."


Why don't we just get rid of the military and add Roses, Candles, LoLCats and Unicorns instead. Roses could be worth the same as troops, Candles and LoLCats would be the same as Jets/Turrets, Unicorns would be tanks. Then you could really enjoy the game rockman. You wouldn't have to worry about any player interactions. And your countries having Troops/Jets/Turrets and Tanks wouldn't be a complete contridiction of itself, since nobody expects Roses, Candles and LoLCats to attack anyone.




If you believe that FAing and market buyouts are overpowered, make suggestions for change. I think that Self Farming and Self Land Trading is much easier to fix though, and I personally feel its against the spirit of the game. So I aim to fix this issue, by making suggestions and having conversations about it until something is done. Personally, I'd like to see it eliminated completely. But that will never happen. So instead of fighting it, I am trying to comprimise and make suggestions that allow players to either self farm or not, but still be able to compete with each other.

LOL, even after I told you once before I was not running a TMBR's you still try to state that as fact. I'm running TTR's. not theo techer's, not MBR's. Theo Techer Reseller's. The idea of a TTR is to make money by both selling tech and reselling military. I have nerver claimed to be one of the best netters, I'm better than some and worse than others. About middle of the road.

I WILL STOCK LOLCATS

LOL, a little comic relief is just what this saga needed.

The problem is, thats not what the idea of a TTR is. A TTR is a Theo Techer, that drops stockpile as a MBR. The point of switching to MBR is to drop stockpile, rather than to just have a different method of income for the last month of the set. What you've played is a late switching TMBR with an extended tech phase, rather than a TTR. I've played an early switching TMBR with a quick tech phase a couple of times.

If you grow to 16k acres as a theo techer, tech some business and residential tech, and then switch to theocracy casher, you're not a "Theocracy Techer Casher". You're just a Theocracy Casher that did its tech start at a very large landsize. Similarly, if you grow to 16k acres as a theo techer, tech a tiny amount, just barely enough to switch to TMBR and buyout your PM, and then switch to MBR, you're not a 'Theocracy Techer Resller', you're just a Theocracy MBR that did a very long tech phase.

The idea of a TTR is to stockpile hundreds of millions of bushels before switching to MBR.

I've played all three - TMBR, TTR, and Theo Techer. What you're doing is a TMBR, not a TTR.






I do think they are overpowered, which is why I would use those tactics if my goal was to get 1 country into the top 10. Similarly, I would use all of my countries during war time, including multiple countries against one enemy country, because that is also overpowered.

How is self-farming and self-landtrading against the spirit of the game? It is countries working together for mutual benefit. On the other hand, working together during wartime is for the destruction of other countries. Why do all interactions between countries need to be detrimental? Should we remove the public market from the game because that allows countries to interact with each other peacefully, and this is a war game?

War is one of the reasons people play this game, as is netgaining. You are even more arrogant than I am (which is saying something) in your belief that only war should be allowed to be a cooperative effort, whereas mutually beneficial netgaining is against the spirit of the game.

your wrong, since I have no military bases at this stage I'm not a MBR and I'm reselling at the same time as teching so I'm not just a techer. I'm a techer reseller that has a theo gov. And by the way I'm still stocking. Once you switch to MBR with all military bases you are no longer a TTR, If your just teching your not a TTR. If you just tech and switch to a MBR to destock your not a TTR. To be a true TTR you have to be teching and at the same time reselling. And yes of course I will switch to a TMBR to destock I'm not as dumb as you seem to think. By the way bushels are not the only thing that can be stocked.

I am wrong then. I'd assumed that countries with ~2000 networth per acre were TMBRs that had stopped using turns. Why do you keep so much military? The expenses have to be ridiculous, don't they? The expenses outweigh the profits from military reselling, do they not?

no the profit from reselling is higher than the expences, Much higher when military goes up like when there is a new DOW. But you need to be reselling 3 times a day for it to work right. the idea is to play the turns after most or all your military on the market has sold so your expenses are lower when playing turns than when your reselling and your military is on the market. You have to keep a lot of military because you can only resell 25% of on hand militray at a time. You also have to keep a close watch on the market as at different times some military types may not be profitable and you have to adjust your buying and reselling acordingly.

By my rough estimates, you'll be making about $250m each time you resell military (after factoring in taxes), and carrying about $9m in military expenses per turn (including the food consumption, assuming that you buy military after using turns, and not including your tax income towards this amount), and losing about 7500 tech points (due to ally losses) each time you sell military instead of tech.

So according to my estimates, you aren't actually making any money by reselling as long as you sell 3x a day (not losing any either, though, but you are incurring risk). If you only manage 2 military sales a day due to military getting stuck, or time issues, then you would be losing money.

Since you're convinced that you make profit reselling, and you seem to be smarter than KJ (who plays by heart, not numbers), I'm guessing you've got the numbers on how much money you make each time you resell, and how much your military expenses per turn are?

How close were my estimates to what your countries actually get?

your way to high on militray expences, cut it almost in half. with food about 5mil per turn on real good days 4.5mil. bonus can be used to cut expenses. the amount made has ebbs and flows as the market goes up and down so yes there is risk. bad days can be well under your $250mil est per resell but good days can be more than double even triple that. You really have to somewhat play it by feel, rummors of war and by heart not just numbers. There used to be a turn simulator that showed profit on the old earth 2025. When I ran it more than ten years ago it showed that you should make more by reselling and teching than you would just teching. I'm not sure with the changes that have been made from earth 2025 if it's better or worse.

Ah, you're stockpiling tech then. I've got 4.25m a turn in military expenses on my 42k acre 25m networth techers, not including food consumption. If you've got the same expenses while having 16k acres and probably 27m or so networth before buying military (and thus about 2m more networth, and 2m less networth from buildings/acres/population), then you'd have about 4m more networth than me from tech points. That would put you at ~5 million tech points on 16k to 17k acres, which is a lot.

When you talked on FFAT about reselling military and then your countries jumped to 2000 networth per acre, I figured you were already a TMBR.

If you've got such a small military, I can't see you making $250m per sale at these prices - 125/150/150/460 or so. Are you factoring in the 6% market commissions when determining your profit per sale?


I'm not sure why FFA countries achieve such low networths compared to countries on the alliance server. It isn't self-farming thats keeping most FFA players out of the top 100, its lack of skill. ESD is one of the more skilled FFA alliances out there, but even they haven't been putting up the 100m+ anws that every alliance should be putting up during netting sets.

I tend to just assume that most FFA players lack netting skill, so I assumed that after you said you were reselling military, and your networth per acre ballooned to 2k, that you were a MBR. I assumed, and I was wrong.

I am arrogant, and I'm almost always right, but I'm also willing to admit when I'm wrong.

most would have figured from the numbers that I was a MBR but thats one reason I like the TTR strat. Also the fact I learned to net in a war clan and had to find a ways to net with a large military or not have any countries ever make it to the end of the set may have something to do with what I use. You have to watch us old timers were sneeky. the last few days have been below avg with lower military prices but the lows and highs banance out over the set. A great bonus to the TTR strat I use is war clans love me. I help keep military on the market when they need it.

Your stats are very good and will easily out do my little ttr's. the tech prices droped faster and lower than I expected. In fact the over all market is very sluggish compaired to the old earth 2025 ffa. I figured tech would hold in the 2200 to 2500 range longer based on last set.

I have no idea what the networths have been in either 1A or the ffa recently as I have not played in years. (I played a 1/2 set last set but more or less just played turns.

I'm hard headed myself, as I said before we are more alike than you may think.

I've always respected ESD, so I think we're more alike than you think I do :P

FFA networths are very pathetic, and the landsizes are, too. Just check the top scores from previous sets, both for the alliance anw's, and the top 25, top 50, and top 100 cutoffs. Last set was a new record with 30 countries making it to 200 million networth. And netting alliances don't even put up 100m anw, except on rare occasions.

I like to use my countries cooperatively (thats what FFA is for, afterall, for both cooperative netting and cooperative warring), and I'd love to landtrade on the alliance server, and I've even suggested guidelines on the LaF site for how to setup pacting to encourage mutually beneficial unplanned 1:1 landtrading with other alliances. It looks like we'll be taking a break from that to war against SoL for a few sets in a row, which I won't mind, as long as the wars are fair.

TL;DR. Maybe made it through ten posts... My bad if this has already been stated in this thread or other similar ones.

In an effort only to solve the OP's issues, I suggest that it be coded that you can not attack your own countries, regardless of tag status or attack type. Stops self-farming, obviously, but doesn't change other grabs in any way. It also has the benefit of fluffers DR'ing the fluff out of their countries. People who do that are fluffs ;p

In reality, I don't play FFA, so I don't really get a say- Take this all with a grain of salt.

Just organise to be online at X time every night to landtrade with a friend if they introduce that u cant hit yourself

:P :P :P

I did say that I've no footing on what's going on in FFA, and to take my suggestion lightly. Additionally, I only claimed that this would be the easiest method to address the OP's original issue, which was self-farming.

Yes, people would cross-farm more, but it's marginally more difficult and time consuming to do that, as two people would need to work together. Self-farming requires a single person, as they have all the "ops" they need, and can do whatever suits them the best any time they're online.