16 points for 24 hours of no market commissions?

Would certainly help to diversify destocking.

i think that would be a lot of fun

Interesting concept. I like it.

then Demo better get a good boost

24h of no commissions for goods you put on the market during that timeframe or only goods sold during that timeframe?

I was thinking sold (and obviously bought) in that time frame.

I don't think it should apply to goods sent to market in that window and definitely not to standing orders placed in that window.

So I assume this has been implemented?

make it cost 30 points and I'll agree :)

and yeah otherwise Demo needs a huge boost, being the wrose government for war is already bad enough... I mean Theos only get fluffty SDI, but otherwise can be decent war countries :P

30 points? In other words, completely unobtainable?

i feel like this would make a theo destocking/tmbr too powerful. maybe could be used by any govt but theo?

thats the point, this would reinforce the Theo destock only.

Demo is inferior to Theos while blowing stock, attacking and building up, Demo is only good to play around with the market and try to make some money with it, however this bonus would make Demo/mbr retarded instead of not optimal.

I am against this, theo is already too strong, why give it even more advantages... and honestly why would a government have the bonus and others not? sounds like a ball of cats to me :)

Something needs to be done to either weaken the Theos, or reinforce the other governments.

Republic
+20% explore rate. Very Good
+20% Maximum per capita income. Good
-10% military strength. Bad

Democracy
+10% Maximum technology. Good
No market Commissions. Very Good
3 turns required to attack. fluff!!!!

Theocracy
-20% private market costs. Very Good
+40% construction speed. Very Good
+50% maximum population. Very Good
-35% maximum technology. fluff
Double GDI Expenses.... LOL?

Communism
+20% technology effectiveness. Good
+35% industrial production. Very Good
+35% market sale size. Very Good
10% market commissions. BAD

Dictatorship
+25% military strength. Very Good
+30% spy effectiveness. Good
-30% construction speed. fluff
+32% Building capture. Very Good

Tyranny
1 Turn Attack. Very good
+20% attack gains. Good
-10% military expenses. Good
-25% maximum per capita income. Bad

Fascism
+15% food production. Good
+75% oil production. Very Good
-15% maximum population. Bad
-10% maximum per capita income. Bad

--------------------

Monarchy: Dull government, nothing wrong or right with it

Democracy: 1 Very good advantage, 1 Good and 1 fluffTY disadvantage.
Under the average of all governments.

Republic: 1 Very good Advantage, 1 Good and 1 Bad disadvantage.
On average of other governments.

Theocracy: 3 Very good advantages, 1 fluffty disadvantage and one LOL... clearly the superior government if played right.

Communism: 2 Very good advantages, 1 Good advantage and one Bad, is above the rest, but high military cost ends nuking it if not played right.

Dictatorship: 2 very good advantages, 1 good advantage and one fluffty disadvantage, is a great government if played right, but the construction penalty puts it in the same ground of the comies, a superior government that will end nuked if not played right.

Tyranny: 1 Very good advantage, with 2 good advantages and one bad disadvantage, but is a good government for anything BUT casher.

Fascism: 1 Very good advantage, 1 good advantages and 2 bad disadvantages, on the level of the republic, maybe a lil bit under it.

--------------------------------


After that ranting, I think Theo is TOO good and the disadvantages hardly undermine the advantages, Theo needs another penalty or one of its bonus needs to be reduced or eliminated (-10% PM cost?).

After that the 2 governments that need a Buff are Democracy and Fasc, Fasc needs it much more than the Demo.

Demos disadvantage is only fluff if they have to attack, so they aren't that bad, however, Fasc needs a buff... maybe a reduction on civilian loses, or to get rid of the population penalty?

Decreasing private market regeneration rate would be an excellent way to weaken theocracy.

Jumping off your private market is too strong right now and needs to be weakened. If we cut PM regeneration by 25% (and boosted MBs to compensate), that would help balance out theocracy a little bit.

Nah

That weakends Private market destock as a whole, not Theocracy

a Reduction of the Private Market Cost bonus would even the play field a little and less people would simply convert to Theo just to destock at the end of the set

the bonus at 10%.

Gov tech MB Land Final Price
144 0.9 0.8916 1 0.25 25000 25000 86.66352
192 0.9 0.8916 1 0.25 25000 25000 115.55136
210 0.9 0.8916 1 0.25 25000 25000 126.3843
588 0.9 0.8916 1 0.25 25000 25000 353.87604
360 0.9 0.8916 1 0.25 25000 25000 216.6588

hmmmmm

Without MBs

Gov tech MB Land Final Price
144 0.9 0.8916 1 0.25 0 25000 115.55136
192 0.9 0.8916 1 0.25 0 25000 154.06848
210 0.9 0.8916 1 0.25 0 25000 168.5124
588 0.9 0.8916 1 0.25 0 25000 471.83472
360 0.9 0.8916 1 0.25 0 25000 288.8784


Ok that would make Demo slightly stronger, but honestly it isn't an issue as Theo has better long term bonuses than the silly democracy

....
----------------
15% PM cost bonus

Gov tech MB Land Final Price
144 0.85 0.8916 1 0.25 25000 25000 81.84888
192 0.85 0.8916 1 0.25 25000 25000 109.13184
210 0.85 0.8916 1 0.25 25000 25000 119.36295
588 0.85 0.8916 1 0.25 25000 25000 334.21626
360 0.85 0.8916 1 0.25 25000 25000 204.6222

without MBs

Gov tech MB Land Final Price
144 0.85 0.8916 1 0.25 0 25000 109.13184
192 0.85 0.8916 1 0.25 0 25000 145.50912
210 0.85 0.8916 1 0.25 0 25000 159.1506
588 0.85 0.8916 1 0.25 0 25000 445.62168
360 0.85 0.8916 1 0.25 0 25000 272.8296


yeah decreasing the Private market bonus to 15% seems to do the trick, as it is still stronger than demo destock, but is weaker reselling (unless the base price of units is pretty low)

-------

BottomLine Change Theo to:

Theocracy
-15% private market costs. Good
+40% construction speed. Very Good
+50% maximum population. Very Good
-35% maximum technology. fluff
Double GDI Expenses.... LOL?

That simple change would eliminate the Theocracy monopoly on late set destocking, without weaken their overall performance.


Fasc would be stronger if you could sell and buy Oil in the private market, as it would turn oil into another commodity that can be stocked.


If that is done Demo/mbr won't be ridiculous (and converting to one is already a pain without the Theo build speed bonus) :)

The private market destock as a whole needs weakening. And MBR needs strengthening, while not being overpowered for dropping stockpile. Cutting PM regen and increasing military base effectiveness is the simple answer to that. Which also helps weaken theocracy.

if you cut regen that weakens Mbr....

I don't catch your driff there boy...

wait you mean using MB to speed up the PM regen? and if there are no MB cut regen in half? of actual speed?

if that isn't what you mean, then I am LOST.

Decreasing pm regen would strengthen MBR. Jumping as an MBR would be less viable and people would have to jump on the public. Right now the public is over saturated in military just by a few countries jumping early as MBRs.

I'm not talking about MBR destock, but the actual MBR strategy. Decreasing regen, without increasing the profit margin they can make on military will weaken them.

I'm talking about making military bases increase the discount one gets when buying military off their private market.

Oh I see what you mean... hmmmmm


and fluff I had a LONG post and my phone died on me :(

military bases should strengthen military and decrease loses in battle and MBR would be a good war strat too =D

See the linked thread for Rockman's suggestion regarding MBR

http://forums.earthempires.com/...ry-bases-pm-replenishment

I know you are. If MBR destock is no longer the be all end all of destocking then that will increase public market military demand which would make MBR much more profitable.

You don't understand how MBR is properly used. Public market military demand is unaffected by destocking during the first 6 weeks or so of the set. Decreasing private market regen without strengthening military bases and doing nothing to increase prices for those 6 weeks will severely weaken an already borderling MBR strategy.

For those who stockpile as another strategy and choose to destock as a MBR, profitable is an irrelevant question. They should not be reselling as a MBR until the last day or two of the set at the earliest, they should be dropping stockpile for at least a week after switching to MBR. The point of switching to MBR to destock is to destock as a MBR, not to resell as a MBR.

Right now, if you're reselling for more than a day or two as a MBR, you're doing it the wrong way. If we decrease the rate at which a MBR can drop stockpile, that will not change the fact that you should barely do any reselling with a MBR.

You're missing the point of the MBR destock - its about destocking, not reselling.

No, I am well aware of all that. It is a matter of destocking on the public or the private. If you destock on the public then that brings military prices up and helps MBRs. The duration for which that helps MBRs depends on the rate of public market cost increase versus stock increase. If the percentage increase for the price of goods on the public market is increasing faster than the percentage increase of stockpile then one should be destocking. If it is not viable for all these countries to unload their entire stockpiles on the private market due to slower unit regeneration rate then they will have to do a public market destock. It is better to unload your full stock on $600 tanks than to only unload half of it on the private market. This could easily start raising public market prices 2.5 weeks before the end of the round which would certainly be very beneficial to MBRs.

To make public market prices start going up 2.5 weeks before the end of the round instead of around 0.5 weeks, we'd probably need to cut PM regen by nearly 80%.

If you cut PM regen rates by something much more reasonable like 20% or 25%, then public market prices might go up maybe a day earlier or so.

I was definitely envisioning maybe -50% pm regen rate. What makes -20 or -25% "more reasonable"?

-50% PM regen rate will basically destroy the TMBR strategy. The discount that military bases would need to give for the TMBR strategy to still be viable with a -50% PM regen rate would be astronomical.

The TMBR strategy needs to be strengthened slightly, rather than being totally killed off.

I'm very annoyed about all the whining about how weak oiler is, and no one complains about how weak TMBR is.

I don't think -50% pm regen would kill HMBR. Say you have reached selling/replenishment equilibrium as an 25k acre MBR with $321 tanks. You sell 1,800,000 tanks for $480 as a MBR of which you see $812,160,000. Now if you have per turn expenses to sell of $20M that means you net $119.09 per tank. To double your income at half the price that means prices need to be at least $127 higher, which is improbable since that would mean $607 tanks. $588 is the most one could reasonably expect more than a week before the end of the round so this would result in at least a 5% weakening of HMBR while effectively removing the HMBR destock as a viable solution (the second part I think is a good thing). So if we had some amount for how much we wanted to strengthen HMBR by then it would be much easier to figure out how to counter act that 5% weakening. And maybe 50% isn't the right number, maybe it is 35%. That depends on how early people accumulate stock and if it makes more sense for them to do a longer destock or to keep stocking. One key I think is to eliminate HMBR and 0% theo as the standard destocking mechanisms. If that means making two changes, one which weakens MBR a bit while adding another to strengthen it, then that is fine by me.

Detmer - do the numbers on the profit per acre for a theocracy MBR. If you cut their PM regen by 50%, they cannot compete with other strategies. Farmers, cashers, and techers all make $500 per acre when teched up. A TMBR struggles to compete with them already. Cutting their income in half when they're already weak is really dumb, especially given that the market cannot automatically adjust to balance TMBRs, since the private market and indies are other sources of military for people. TMBRs need strengthening, not for their income to be cut in half.

What you are suggesting is equivalent to suggesting that oil production be cut in half and that anyone can buy oil for $200 off their private market. Your idea would ruin TMBR just as much as what I've just said would ruin oiler.

No. It would cut their supply in half but given constant demand that should just serve to increase the price. Making the strat non-viable for destocking would serve to increase the price even more. As I mentioned cutting pm regen rate in half would certainly decrease the strength of the strat by at least 5% since the market can not increase the price high enough to compensate fully. It is likewise unlikely that it would compensate fully, because, as you noted, indies serve as an external source of military. I acknowledged in my previous post that another change would be necessary to strengthen MBR up to the levels of other strategies. The most important aspect of cutting regen rates is to reduce HMBR's functionality as the universal destocking tool. Purely strengthening MBR does nothing change that aspect of destocking, which I think is more important than finding a way to force MBR into viability.

TMBR cannot compete with other strategies if tanks at $480
They aren't even close. They would need tanks to be at maybe $520 to $540 to be able to come close to techers, farmers, cashers, and indies in income per acre.

Do your math with tanks at $530 instead of $480, and then tell me what price MBRs would need tanks to be in order to make the same profit if you cut PM regen in half.

From the thread Caffeine Addict linked where I made my private market regen suggestion:

If prices were say 120/140/140/480, then currently a TMBR makes just $33.8 per troop, $25.6 per jet, $15.6 per jet, and $127.2 per tank. Thats an income of just $310.7 per acre.

If prices early on are at 130/170/180/540, then with current regen rates, a TMBR makes $43.2 per troop, 53.8 per jet, 53.2 per turret, and $183.6 per tank, for a total of $129.6+134.5+133+183.6= $580.7 per acre.

------------

Since a casher makes over $600 per acre, you see where military prices need to be for a MBR to match casher in income per acre.

So basically you are suggesting that MBR needs to be roughly 10% stronger. To overcome my suggestions it would actually need to be at least 16% stronger. That doesn't seem that hard to me to squeeze in from a good suggestion. I don't have one off the top of my head but some sort of synergy with indy is possible amongst other things.


And casher is a poor metric for MBR income. Casher's should have higher income since their stocks depreciate in value and the only way to circumvent that is to either play the market exceptionally well or to use decay bonus and leave your cash floating around riskily. MBRs on the other hand carry higher portions of their NW the whole round and thus have greatly reduced risk in losing stock. Furthermore cashers have to invest heavily in two techs to get their income's up whereas MBR only needs to invest heavily in one to get rolling (obviously any long term MBR will require some bus/res as well).

MBRs also suffer from the extended period later in the set where military prices are low when people are stockpiling. There's no way that they can sell military at 130/170/180/540 for weeks 4 though 7 during the set - the prime weeks for stockpiling. Even selling at 120/140/140/480 during those weeks is probably a generous estimate for them.

They're at about half as much income per acre as a casher during the few weeks when people are stockpiling. Cashers should have higher income, but being twice as high does make it hard for TMBRs to compete.

lowest troops i've seen at alliance were at 104 on this set and that lasted couple days, jets etc were also quite cheap at middleish of set.

Last primary set at various points between day 30 and day 50
Troops averaged around 102, often at 99, as low as 96.
Jets averaged around 122, often at 118, as low as 115.
Turrets averaged around 118, often at 115, as low as 112.
Tanks averaged around 480, often at 460, as low as 445.

(except for blips were people amazingly sold at stupidly low prices)

I switched to MBR around day 24... Rockman said that I should have stuck to teching in the help threads and, annoyingly, he was right.

I had figured at the time that if prices were at least similar to the set earlier I'd have been ok but they were worse.

If pm regen was at 50% then the cut in pm military costs would have to be quite high to make the strat worthwhile (in primary - alliance is a different ballgame).

sellers cut current market price with few bucks and eventually price is stupidly low.