The basic idea would revolve around this process for countries who were tagged, and either suicided in tag or after detagging within a set period of time:

-A set guideline is created for definition of suiciding. This would include time periods, types of attacks, feasibility of losses being regained.

-Should the country meet such guidelines, it's prior alliance leader(s) could request a "reset" of the event and deletion of the offending country (essentially the same process as a country that abuses/exposes a bug)

-The moderators on the server would evaluate whether the situation meets the suiciding guidelines - if it does, the events are reset and the offending country is removed. If it does not, the process ends there.

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I propose this because we have many things that we did not in the past, such as an active community, ability to manipulate the game in terms of resetting/deleting countries, and an overall better resolve to improve each players in-game experience.

Obviously, there would need to be restrictions (such as how often / how many times an alliance could request it per set, as we wouldn't want it to be abused for people to "have fun", creating more work for the rest of us), and it would take time to create a definition, however this has been a problem for the game for a long standing time. One which has made many players quit over the years that we have otherwise not been able to solve.

limit should be maybe 3 times.

Do you suggest any consequences for the person who's account was involved in the suiciding?

I read most of it but I feel like saying that even if it's considered a 'bad action', suiciding causes player interaction within the game, which is a good thing. It helps spur conflict between alliances etc. The more padding you put on the walls of the game the more it turns into solitaire. Which is boring.

When player interaction causes players to quit, thats not a good thing.

If they get so worked up over a game, they should probably take a step back anyways. Or play solitaire. I'd suggest minesweeper, but you run the risk of being blown up there too.

maybe it would be easier for players to be able to select and option that prevents them from being attacked or attacking for a certain period of time. Maybe even an entire set. This would allow new players to be able to learn without having to risk being hit by suiciders or farmed by alliances. You would need to put a restriction on how many times someone could use it, or even just a one time thing to keep all-x players from using it.

IMO experienced players should be able to handle the random suiciders, its just the new players that we should try and protect.

It takes you two months to play minesweeper?

Irrelevant.

The random danger and challenge of working through a reset without being hit, or despite being hit, is part of the game. Making the game more and more "baby safe" by removing the randomness dulls it further.

Irrelevant? You care equally about something you put 2 minutes into as you put 2 months into? I doubt it.

::Yawn::
Quit trolling.

I don't know rockman, that'd have to be established, but I'm sure we could find small consequences that may further dissuade people from doing it, such as losing their bonuses. I think the fact that they would have their work undone and country deleted alone would be dissuasion enough.

Kya - That's why the guidelines will need to be very defined. It shouldn't be a grey area where it happens all the time. It also contingent on passing 3 criteria: has to meet the guidelines, the alliance which was detagged from would have to agree that it should be undone and the game moderators would also have to agree.

what about an inability to attack for X hours after coming out of vacation mode?

im not a fan of allowing people to have more than one game account

id rather we all had one, so if we wanted to check people for past suiciding/unwanted behaviour we could

at least that way anyone who did suicide would have it more linked to them, perhaps auto show who ran the country if someone suicided

dustfp is right though, there should be a limit on attacking after vacation as well as entering

but a server where one or more tags kill everyone who detags because they dont know who might suicide isnt fun

its not good when various clans decide they need to kill all untagged either, as opposed to just big detaggers

i wonder if a tag should be allowed to set a "this country cannot hit for x hour after we detag it" option, either make it not count vacation hours or let you set 2 seperate limits if a country goes into vacation

if that information was displayed somewhere then if someone didnt delete or retag within the timeperiod that could perhaps cutdown pre emptive action

because sometimes tags have to kill people they boot as well because they might be talking about suiciding on allies or just mad at being booted

any rollback would have to be very soon, id suggest just limiting countries hits but gradually reducing the limits might be an easier option than a rollback whenever any hard limits had expired

why should we mods intervene in the community aspect of the game?

if you dont want to be hit get enough units. if you cant compete for a top spot with units, balance if you want to take the risk or not. if you take the risk and get hit then i wouldnt help you getting your stuff back...

spawn obviously there is no enough units

if one person stocks earlier or longer or dumps sooner then they can easily break another person

even if everyone played exactly the same way then it would just boil down to who played when and got a few percent ahead to break through

While there is no way someone can have enough defence - alliances can try to minimize the damage caused by suiciders by having higher standard of defence.

doing 60+ grabs in a 140 turns run would certainly more difficult if the suicider has to do 20m jets SSes instead of the easy 5m jets SSes. Alliances also has the advantage of 2 D allies slot in counter of suiciders who *usually* has no O ally.

This will also force suiciders to hit with more than 1/3 their military and therefore cause them to lose more readiness in the suicide runs.

However I dislike suiciders ruining someone's hard-earned finish being a netter in heart myself - suicider is a community aspect of the game. The game admins have curbed suiciding in single-player servers with the new GDI rule, it is up to alliances to lessen the damage caused by suiciders instead of asking mods to remove this aspect of the game.

It seems like suiciding is part of the challenge of this game. It's annoying, but up your defenses and try not to piss people off!

What a load of bullfluff. Perfect example of a netgainer looking to make it so that they can carry less miltary.

Sad thing is, like all the other things making netting more enjoyable (bonuses, market orders, constant tinkering of bushel floor, booms, land suicide protection etc..) this will get probably get serious consideration.

Forgot to add 'sell all' button, removal of $2b limit.

Suicides are players behabior, admins and mods shouldn't do anything about that.

Let's say I am a new player and alliance A screws/farms me, I have every right to get my revenge.

Paying reps is the way the community takes responsability of the behavior of their members, and a member going suicidal is a failture of leadership.

Most times you won't get any warnings, but some times when a member is about to explode and go on a rampage, he/she will be vocal about it, and as a leader you have to show them reason.

The problem is that its not possible to defend against someone who has stockpiled and prepared to suicide. And he causes more harm to his former alliance than he does to the alliance he targets. Its not feasible to defend yourself against a suicider who has 20+ million jets and maxed out weapons and strategy techs, especially if he hits countries in other clans who have stockpile home.

Warmongers like to pretend that its possible to make your country impenetrable to suiciders, but its not. The only way to make it impossible for suiciders to wreck your country is for your country to be a wreck before suiciders touch it ... which warmongers are quite skilled at doing.

I had 22 billion cash on 14k acres a couple weeks ago. If I wanted to go on a farming run against another alliance, no amount of military would have stopped me. The ability to stockpile cash and then spend it on jets makes stopping suiciders literally impossible.

Rockman - nor should it be defendable. It's a part of the game.

No one is saying it should be possible to stop suiciders with huge cash stockpilles, I am saying the comunity should deal with them not the mods.

The solution to prevent suicides from Tag A to allied tag B is to give more info to the tag admins:

When a player joins a tag, the tag admin should be able to see all the past preformances and countries made by that player, and the username of the owner.

That deals with old players pretending to be noobs just to suicide.

Mods should step in and ban any player with duplicate accounts, for those that make a new account everytime they suicide, having 2 game profiles could be fine under certain conditions, but 3 or more should get people ban/deleted.

If admins can see players past suicides or past clan, then they should be capable to detect suiciders and deal with them before they can cause any damage.

If the leadership was unable to see it comming, then they pay the reps, or refuse to pay and war.

agreed. the repeat suiciders need to be stopped.

i won't mention them by name but most probably know who i'm refering to :)

i like the express? rule that unless a country has hit you more than twice, you can't do special attacks against it. perhaps game moderators can go ahead and wave this rule for estalished alliances so they aren't affected by it so real alliances wouldn't be affected by it (ie if PDM wants to early reset AB war someone) - but this would limit early reset suiciders to just landgrabbing straight outta OOP (and landgrabs are easy to recover from at that point in the game, ABs not so much). this would end the lone country suiciders, but still allow a small country to AB/BR/GS someone if they are getting farmed.

if it's good enough for express, why can't it be implemented for alliance?

kthnxbai!

Taking away the random nature of some elements of the 'alliance' server makes it stale and boring.

If you want plain vanilla netgaining, go somewhere else.

I retract what i said... After seeing the retarded actions in FFA, having a 3 day restart being FAed to 3m NW and basically ruin 2 months of play.

You warring guys aren't really doing yourselves any favors by posting here. You somehow have worse arguments than the other side.

So you actually think a roll back is better than having CLAN admins know what their members have done in the past and with whom they have played.

Sending untaggeds to suicide on other clans is an old part of the alliance server, also sending spies to other clans, honestly you people can't actually consider a roll back as a solution, is like saying having an abortion is better that using a condom.

Being able to undo the damage done is bullfluff, give clan admins the ability to prevent suiciders from playing in their tags, and know that so called new player is a SoLer in disguise, more than that is bullfluff.

Pandora is a war clan? since when?

+1, except I don't think they represent all "war guys" -- even though some may like to think they do.

The point is that preventing special attacks like is done in other servers achieves nothing, suicide runs concist of a fluff ton SS + missiles, followed by a land drop or a self delete.

Limiting special attacks on the alliance server achieves nothing, also when a member of clan A goes wild and farms another country (whether is untagged or on a minor alliance), that country can get revenge on other members of the same tag that farmed him; and you people may call it a suicide, but it was a suicide with reason, and those keep huge alliances (like LaE in FFA) honest and humble (at least to some point).

When is a roll back justified? When Fatty joins Evo and suicides on Laf?
When Fatty joins PDM and suicides on Evo?

Is one thing to get a SoLer that pretends to be a New member in order to suicide, and another is to harvor a well know suicider.

If Tag admins can see who is who and what they have done in the past, then is their responsability and they pay reps; if a new player goes stupid on a allied tag, then is a failture of the traineer; if a player has 10 game accounts laying around, then is a failture of the admins.

Is simple, a Roll back isn't needed, there isn't even a reason to give special treatment to suiciders.

In solo servers is required, because they are SOLO, and players love to get their friends help in order to screw others, and that isn't fair.

However, in servers with tags you are supposed to play with others, and whether you like it or not, some times you have to pay for the sins of your team mates.

That is my honest 50 cents and I typed all that on a phone.

that is some awesome phone typing!

my response, and what I assume is the response of other admins & mods, is that we have no appetite to try and police what is and what isn't worthy of being rolled back. that sounds like a major headache that mods don't need. As a player, I would be pissed if my alliance didn't get a rollback and another did. The only rollback I could even see us considering is when cheating or bots are involved.

what this thread should be discussing is ways to curb the underlying behaviours that lead to suiciding in the first place. if we assume this thread is talking only about "political" or "professional" suiciders (aka people who are playing with the INTENTION to suicide) then that is something to talk about. One thing I'd like to do is make it more difficult to "suicide" on people/tags who HAVEN'T attacked you, but make it easier to hit people who HAVE attacked you.

That's always seemed like a solution that allows people to get revenge against an aggressor (which I have always been a propoent of) but impacts the sleeper/agenda-based suiciders (which are the ones that drove folks away, from my experience).

I agree with Pang. That is just annoying. Sorry folks. I think alot of you forget that your "free" game, means "free" work for the admins and mods.
I think suiciders can easily be curbed. Stop accepting people with a known long history of doing it on several servers. I have 0 and that means 0 sympathy for anyone that accepts a known suicider like Fatty. No matter his word.
As for the usual "admins go for netting changes more than warring", bullcrap. We all know I am a full time warrer in a warring clan, only because I cannot net my way out of a paperbag. But there is plenty of changes that have been done for the warring aspect of the game....they just aren't what you want, so you keep on crying.

And that ends my rant.......

I did not type this on my phone :P

I think the problem is the lack of consequences for a suicider. Especially lethal is the ability to anonymously suicide with no permanent repercussions. Also a serious problem is the loss of players that occurs when people get suicide on unprovoked.

Many warmongers take pride in being douchebags, and claiming this is a war game (when originally, the only charts were netting charts, and it took the administrators of this game instituting charts for warring stats for warring to even be recognized).

The threat of losing your country is no deterrence at all to prevent people from being fluffs merely because they can. As a community, we lack the maturity to handle the responsibility of policing ourselves.

The rules benefiting suiciders perpetrate a game dynamic in which we have a higher retention rate of jerks than we do of mature players. It's a good thing our admins are more mature than our players, otherwise we'd see people getting their countries deleted because "its what my admin powers are for". Just because you can suicide on someone doesn't mean you should, no more than a moderator should delete someone just because they can. Just like deletions should only occur when provoked, suiciders should only occur when provoked.

Good point good sir

great ideas! if it's good enough for express why can't it be slightly changed and implemented for alliance! you are wise beyond your years

Silly Trife

Is not good for alliance because this is the alliance server

What happens if Country in clan A farms a couple of countries in small clan B?

Only the countries he hit can hit back while the rest must watch?

What if they wanted to kill the bastard?

Or what if the thing is going to scalate into war, yet the small clan is denied the chance of killing the unprepared countries in clan A, because they haven't hit them once.

What if they wanted a revenge FS the next set?

You said established alliances won't be under this rule, but that is wrong, I can totally see old alliances taking advantage of small alliances just because they can't have the First Strike.

----------------------------

Answering Pang and the rest, I don't buy that unprovoked suicide argument, something must have provoked it, even if that something is a low morals rival.

What we can do about suiciders is this:

First: once FA is sent to a country, that country must wait 22 hours before the alliance can be canceled.

why: is simple when a suicider is aided, their allies will drop the alliance and jump networth to avoid detection, if we make that impossible then that should stop, or at the very least make it clear when and who helped that bastard untagged that suicided on us.

Second: give clan administrators the ability to see what the players under their tag have done in the past, and make it a rule that having several accounts (for suicide) is banable (2 months ban?).

Chaos your FA suggestion is fluff, Sorry. But they will just get FAed 50m bushels, then put it on the market for 23 hours. Then suicide. So 22 hours is fluff

However the mods have enough on their plates, and have said they dont want to monitor more things, and dont want to be having to choose who gets rollback.

So listen to Chaos.


Make it so when a country tags up the tag admins gain the ability to see a persons entire game profile, even if its private, the tag admins should be allowed to see it. That will then give the clan leaders the ability to accept or decline a person.
Also in line with this idea make it so you can only have 2 game accounts. I Say 2 because sure someone fluffs up once let them have a second change. But to create a 3rd account they should be banned. Whats the reason of having 3 accounts. Your obviously hiding from something, it creates no consequences. So if they want to suicide, they still can, but they better have a valid reason, so in future they will still be able to join a clan.

the FA suggestion isn't snit

At least they have to wait 22 hours before the suicide run, also if someone lands a lucky alliance op, there will be undeniable proof of who helped the suicider.

There are other things that can be done, but I leave that to your imagination.

Anyways the second point is the best one, is the reason why I keep saying it :)

^^^ Agreed. But everyone seems to keep skipping over your post. Its too good that they are scared to read it :P

I don't think anybody should be able to hide their identities. If clan admins can see the info, it can just as easily be shared with other members of the alliance. Just make all profiles 'transparent'. People should be held accountable for their actions.

or just remove all past countries from profile, just leave finishes there.

I still think we don't know what a suicider is yet, to make those kind of changes.

if some1 plans to be suicider he/she just uses other account that time so his/her other account stays clean.