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Dragonlance Game profile

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Oct 18th 2010, 4:43:54

http://www.news.com.au/...ry-e6frfqfr-1225939999663

Note: the news site i have linked from is the news site portal for a series of news ltd. papers in Australia that i would consider of the more tabloid variety. (not to the extreme extent of UK tabloids).

Thoughts?

Does the extensive tipping culture in the US perpetuate corruption and bribery?

Dragonlance Game profile

Member
1611

Oct 18th 2010, 4:52:12

on that point, why doesn't some politican in the US look at raising the minimum wage significantly by $3-4 to try and win some votes?

It is sort of ridiculous that the minimum wage in a country like Australia is double that of the USA... Considering the US's international status etc.

de1i Game profile

Member
1640

Oct 18th 2010, 5:36:22

One of the comments put it pretty well...
TIP = To Insure Prompt Service

Federal Minimum wage is pretty low, but each state is different... In WA it is ~$9. What that article doesn't talk about is that some employers' lower their hourly wage below the Federal/State Min so these tips their employees make subsidise that difference. Also these restaurants that automatically charge 15% do it for parties larger than X amount.

Fooglmog Game profile

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1149

Oct 18th 2010, 6:00:50

Originally posted by Dragonlance:
Does the extensive tipping culture in the US perpetuate corruption and bribery?
No.

Originally posted by Dragonlance:
on that point, why doesn't some politican in the US look at raising the minimum wage significantly by $3-4 to try and win some votes?

Because they would lose the election.

The segment of the population that earns tips are the least reliable voters. Remember, it's not mandatory that everyone vote in the US, like it is in Australia.

At the same time, you'll be accused of being anti-business. This scares away middle class voters (who are reliable) and alienates the two largest campaign fund contributors.

Policies that only help non-voters, while scaring reliable voters and financial contributors do not a winning campaign make.

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.

Marshal Game profile

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32,589

Oct 18th 2010, 17:23:47

not usually but if its high then it can be bribe.
Patience: Yep, I'm with ELK and Marshal.

ELKronos: Patty is more hairy.

Gallery: K at least I am to my expectations now.

LadyGrizz boobies is fine

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mrford Game profile

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Oct 18th 2010, 18:38:24

Another insanely well thought out and well reasearched post my marshal!

Please, tell me more
Swagger of a Chupacabra

[21:37:01] <&KILLERfluffY> when I was doing FA stuff for sof the person who gave me the longest angry rant was Mr Ford

de1i Game profile

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Oct 18th 2010, 18:44:59

Originally posted by mrford:
Another insanely well thought out and well reasearched post my marshal!

Please, tell me more


lolllllllllll

Marshal Game profile

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Oct 18th 2010, 19:54:20

shut up toyota lover.
Patience: Yep, I'm with ELK and Marshal.

ELKronos: Patty is more hairy.

Gallery: K at least I am to my expectations now.

LadyGrizz boobies is fine

NOW3P: Morwen is a much harsher mistress than boredom....

mrford Game profile

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Oct 18th 2010, 20:10:28

In 24 years of having the last name "Ford" I have never heard that one before

you are on FIRE!
Swagger of a Chupacabra

[21:37:01] <&KILLERfluffY> when I was doing FA stuff for sof the person who gave me the longest angry rant was Mr Ford

Thunder Game profile

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Oct 18th 2010, 20:26:38

Originally posted by mrford:
Another insanely well thought out and well reasearched post my marshal!

Please, tell me more


LMAO!!
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NOW3P Game profile

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6503

Oct 18th 2010, 20:34:58

You forgot far reaching, thought provoking, and subject matter relevant.

At least that one was more than a "*kicks Nowie* or "Yes/No" post. I like it when Marsha gets polysyllabic.

Marshal Game profile

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32,589

Oct 18th 2010, 20:51:22

court will decide if tip was bribe or not if it goes that far.
Patience: Yep, I'm with ELK and Marshal.

ELKronos: Patty is more hairy.

Gallery: K at least I am to my expectations now.

LadyGrizz boobies is fine

NOW3P: Morwen is a much harsher mistress than boredom....

mrford Game profile

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Oct 18th 2010, 20:54:57

Way out of context again.

Do you even understand what you are saying?
Swagger of a Chupacabra

[21:37:01] <&KILLERfluffY> when I was doing FA stuff for sof the person who gave me the longest angry rant was Mr Ford

NOW3P Game profile

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6503

Oct 18th 2010, 21:03:18

A couple major issues with this guy's arguments that tipping is becoming equated to bribery:

"Example 1: Because of a delay out of Melbourne to Los Angeles, I missed the connecting flight to New York.
Someone I happened to know on the flight went to the American Airlines desk, explained his problem and put his passport on the counter, a $20 note peeping out of the pages.
The AA clerk pocketed the money and gave my friend a business-class ticket to New York.
I waited another four hours for a Delta Airlines flight.
That was clearly a bribe, not a tip."

- Of course it was! What kind of idiot would think otherwise??? Giving someone $20 BEFORE they do anything for you, with the sole intent of getting them to do something for you is a bribe. This example seems utterly irrelevant.




"Example 2: After the first night in my five-star Washington hotel my room was serviced but my bed was not made up. I could have complained, but instead the next morning I left $2 on the pillow.
The room was magnificently serviced, the bed made with clean sheets and a complimentary bowl of fruit left on the coffee table."

The first question I would have, and which he clearly didn't consider to ask - Was it even the same hotel employee that made up his room both times? Hotel staff do not have regular rounds, nor schedules. There is a very good chance his room was cleaned by two entirely different people with two entirely different levels of work ethic.

Also, he SHOULD have complained. Receiving poor service is not a compulsory reason to leave a tip - it is a reason to notify a manager that the employee is not performing their job duties properly. By leaving $2 (assuming the answer to the above question is yes), he has done nothing but encourage poor work ethic in that employee.



"Example 3: At an elegant flufftail party I asked for a glass of champagne.
"Sorry,'' said the lady behind the bar, "there's no more champagne.'' I dropped two $1 notes on the bar.
Within two minutes the girl came over and gave me a glass of champagne."

- I see this all the time at events. It's not that his $2 suddenly made the champagne appear, it's more likely that someone went to the cellar, grabbed a couple of extra bottles of champagne because they had run out, and the bartender remembered he had asked for some and had it sent over.


"In some cases, restaurants automatically include a 15 per cent tip on your credit-card bill. Never mind how good or bad the service was."

- I have never once encountered this, and I have eaten in all levels of restaurants all over the world. If it happens, it's rare situations.

With that said, there IS a related and growing trend in the service industry which mildly disturbs me. This is the trend of including staff gratuities in event pricing. I see it in event halls, with caterers, and even in travelling bartenders. The reason it's done though, is that some people are too cheap, too drunk, or just too forgetful to remember to tip their service staff. Of course there is the rare occasion where a gratuity really hasn't been earned - but I know very few companies who have any longevity in the industry who have regular occasions like that.


The rest of his examples are superfluous, and incomplete, and I suspect made up off the top of his head.

All in all, this article strikes me as being written by someone who is trying to convince themselves that they are taking the moral high ground over evil America, not actually raising a relevant point.

Crap article, crap arguments, cheap mother fluffer who better not stiff me on a tip.


Fooglmog Game profile

Member
1149

Oct 19th 2010, 1:26:03

I agree with you NOW3P...

Though I've rarely found a major restaurant in any city which didn't include a 15% gratuity in the bill for large parties. Personally, I have no problem with this. Large groups almost always under tip and since pay scales are set-up accounting for tips, that means that the servers have worked especially hard to accommodate a party and don't get paid equally to what they would normally earn. Typically, this kind of policy is in effect for groups of 15 or larger... though 10 isn't uncommon and I've seen it as low as 6 (there's 6 people in my immediate family, so I notice these things). Personally, I think anything below 10 is ridiculous, but I don't take issue with the overall concept.

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.

Angel1 Game profile

Member
837

Oct 19th 2010, 2:18:37

Tips are not inherently amoral. As a matter of fact, I think tips are a good thing.

Servers are hired to serve a restaurant's customers and to keep the restaurant's patrons happy. A tip is the easiest way to provide near instant review of an employee. If service is very bad and all the employee gets is a penny, then the message is clear (we are flat dissatisfied with your service). On the other hand if an employee gets a 40% or higher tip, then the message is also quite clear (Great work, thank you).

You can expect to pay a tip if an employee comes to or with you to provide service. Short of that, it has to be specific cases to warrant a tip in my book.
-Angel1

Dragonlance Game profile

Member
1611

Oct 19th 2010, 3:08:03

yeah, i definetly had your exact thoughts right after i clicked submit message foog. lol

However it also says alot about the morality of your average middle class American if they are not willing to reduce inequality, by increasing the minimum wage.

On the article, i put a disclaimer at the top showing that i don't necessarily endorse the quality of the article for a reason now3p..

I sort of disagree with you a bit Angel, but then i've been brought up in a different culture. Why is not a tip then provided by all customers in all service industries period? why aren't lawyers tipped? or accountant's?

Also, if a tip is expected, then it destroys the whole premise of tipping only for quality service.

The important thing is...

now that the a$ is at parity with the us$ i'm going to take my cash and go blow it all in the US.
:p

Angel1 Game profile

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837

Oct 19th 2010, 3:45:24

Good lawyers and accountants are few and far between. They'll charge whatever they want for their services. When you can charge what you want for your services, you're not likely to allow part of your fees to be tip based.

Increasing the minimum wage increases unemployment. Real simple equation. If an employer has X amount to spend on employees paying them at E amount each, then we have the following equation (assuming 5 employees to start with).

5E = X or perhaps better stated as X/E = 5

If E is the minimum wage and you raise the minimum wage, then you must by necessity decrease the number of employees.

So the new equation might be X/E = 4 (or maybe even X/E = 3)

Potentially even worse consequences could emerge if 5 is the minimum number of minimum wage employees that a company needs to operate. If the minimum wage increases, but the company cannot increase the money allocated to the position, then (in this situation) the company must either seek an exception or find a technological solution (mechanizing the position; thereby resulting in all 5 minimum wage employees losing their jobs) or the company shuts down and fires all its employees (potentially more than those 5 employees).

How does tipping for quality service survive when tips are expected?

15% (20% if suits and ties are required at the restaurant) is a normal tip for good service. If the service is less than good then you take percents away from the server (okay, but not good service may only get them 10%). If the service is better than good, then they get a higher percent. It would not be unusual for a great server to earn a 100% tip.
-Angel1

NOW3P Game profile

Member
6503

Oct 19th 2010, 5:42:10

No worries DL, I wasn't taking issue with it being posted - those were just my thoughts on his thoughts. It's a pretty interesting topic, I think.

I always encourage my clients to tip my employees based on performance, and if they feel it is appropriate. My guys like to get tipped, but I wouldn't even consider making it mandatory. Most folks feel some sort of gratuity is appropriate, but we will happily work with clients who don't. Fortunately though, I'm able to pay my employees pretty well - I'm sure the situation would be much different if they were making minimum wage.

Lord Slayer Game profile

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601

Oct 19th 2010, 15:55:04

Dragonlance, one of the reasons for not raising minimum wage, is it has a waterfall effect. If the min wage is increased, you find that prices on things will go up. People who made a few bucks more then min wage, are now right at the min wage lvl, because when min wage goes up, thier salary stays the same. So those just making min wage do get an increase, but overall thier spending is increased too. and it hurts the people who make just a bit more.

As far as tipping goes, I see alot where parties larger then 8 get a 15% gratitude alot of the time, and the main reason for that is because a party that large takes more time to deal with then the normal smaller size party. The flip side of that is, if they take the 15% out, I won't tip any more then that, but, if I had a party of 8 and the server was really good, I may have tipped 20% instead, so they can loose out big on that.

I will almost alwasy leave something for a tip. Tips say alot about how a server has done. The only time I didn't leave a tip was when a waitress did a really bad job, and had to call a manager to fix our issues. Then I asked the waitress where the manager was, and gave the manager the $1 tip for fixing the issues, and said our waitress didn't even deserve this and it was for him.

dantzig Game profile

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528

Oct 20th 2010, 17:27:55

Originally posted by Lord Slayer:
As far as tipping goes, I see alot where parties larger then 8 get a 15% gratitude alot of the time, and the main reason for that is because a party that large takes more time to deal with then the normal smaller size party. The flip side of that is, if they take the 15% out, I won't tip any more then that, but, if I had a party of 8 and the server was really good, I may have tipped 20% instead, so they can loose out big on that.


The reason for automatic gratuities is people like my Dad. No matter the size of the group, he has a mental upper limit to the amount that he is willing to tip. My family is quite large so we're usually an 8+ top. He'll typically leave $5. $10 if the server did something extraordinary.

If the service was really terrible, call the manager over and tell him/her that you would like to set your own tip d/t the quality of the service. I've never been denied that request.

I agree about always leaving some sort of tip. I usually leave $0.02 + a note for horrible service but I like the idea about tipping the manger.
FoG

NOW3P Game profile

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6503

Oct 20th 2010, 21:30:34

Originally posted by dantzig:
I usually leave $0.02 + a note for horrible service but I like the idea about tipping the manger.


If you tip the manger, baby jeebus might fall out :-P

Dragonlance Game profile

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1611

Oct 20th 2010, 23:28:42

On the topic of minimum wage in the US, i came across this article in Time magazine.

http://www.time.com/...le/0,8599,2026515,00.html

Syoto Game profile

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Oct 21st 2010, 20:28:03

I personally think tipping is fine as long as that is what it is, a voluntary tip. Giving an extra sum of money for someone doing a good job for you because you feel it is worth paying more for what they gave.

American tipping however seems to have, in some situations, become something of a mentality, an assumed income and a way to keep wages low and to place that extra cost on the customer and get around taxation.

Take a hotel in NYC, you are expected to use and tip the staff even if you didn't want their services like a porter, saying no to help is frowned upon.

In the rooms you are supposed to leave a tip out each day for the cleaning staff but how on earth do you know if they have done a good job that warrants the tip, in this instance it is a bribe to give a level of service you expect to receive. If you don't give the tip are they not going to do their job properly for you, if not what are they employed for?

In these instances it might be just the scenario as you don't always expect to meet the maid as they would work when you're not there but maybe if this is expected the hotel should allow the staff to have areas they cover so tips could be left for a good service rather than assuming people will subsides their overheads for them in advance of receiving anything. Sure if it is to say well done, why don't they leave a name and have a box in reception where you can give a tip directly to the person(s) who provided the service.

The mentality in the US in the food industry is that you will be tipped. That if you provide a bad service you'll get a lower tip but a tip never the less and that the tip will go up should you do something right. The European or 'outside the US' view is that tipping is given for going above and beyond rather than just doing the job you are paid to do satisfactorily.

If you got a shocking service in an Cafe, say the food was very slow, the food was just dropped on the table and maybe they got the bill wrong so you had to get them to change it and they were fussy about it. In this occasion in the UK at least they're likely to give you money off the bill.
In the US if didn't tip even a poor service you'd get a funny look and should you ever go back and be recognised you would get a basic or even intentionally bad service. Yet you paid full price for something where you didn't get the basic product and service you were led to believe you would be provided with.

Tipping has become more than a thank you for giving me good service, it has become a payment to ensure you get what you actually paid for the next time. The threat of bad service fuels the mentality that a tip is compulsory. Tipping to encourage good service still exists so it has positives but those positives exist everywhere else in the world too, its just everywhere else you'd expect to get what you paid for at the actual price advertised without having to pay extra.

It might not be a bribe but it's not a 'tip' either. Like the American way of not having prices stated including tax, its all psychological. If you added the price of a service and then add the expected tax then add the tip you're paying a good 20% on what the advertised price was. What cultures who don't expect to be tipped for doing their job don't like about that is that is the psychological deception involved.

I don't much mind as I just work it out as a given price and if its bad service never give them custom again. However what I do hate about tipping culture is what does get a tip.

Ambulance driver - expected to get there on time and save your life = no tip

Pizza delivery boy - shows up 5 minutes late = put money in his hand or never use the place again.

Tube driver - arrives on time and transports you to where you want to go directly = no tip

Porter - grabs your bags and expects you to let him take them to your room when you don't need his help... after all you made it all the way to the other side of the world with them and packed them specifically so you could carry them! = put money in his hand.

Expected to tip culture = capitalist excuse to save money.
Not expected to tip culture = still give tips, they just mean more when they're given and usually more deserving.

Both encourage a good service, just one expects the person providing the service to do their job to a high standard as a given. The other only to give a good service for the sake of being encouraged (could call it a bribe if you like) to keep it up.

No?
Village Eejit
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Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

Member
6702

Oct 25th 2010, 20:09:40

Originally posted by Dragonlance:
http://www.news.com.au/...ry-e6frfqfr-1225939999663

Note: the news site i have linked from is the news site portal for a series of news ltd. papers in Australia that i would consider of the more tabloid variety. (not to the extreme extent of UK tabloids).

Thoughts?

Does the extensive tipping culture in the US perpetuate corruption and bribery?

no, servants just perform better when they are randomly rewarded.
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