btw to put the "oldest alliance" argument to rest (and i was apparently a part of the original argument):

http://atarchive.gotdns.org:8080/...ivepost.jsp?thread=158332

"fingolfin
Patron Aug 9th, 2004 19:23
1. laf, tie in existence in april 98. i believe tie predated laf by one reset. tie came over from OOA

2. sol, icn june 98 they spun off from ucn

3 sept 98 nm, and omega started
"

and apparently i remembered more back then than now.. memories faded but after reading that everything came back to me...