Has any one ever played one successfully?

what should the ratios of indies to oil rigs be?

Military price that should be sold at and minimum oil price to sell at?

A good max land goal?

Important techs and tech levels?

what kind of total net could be expected from such a country?

anything to look out for?

difficulty level?

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I know it is not the optimum netting country, but asking anyway because I am seriously considering trying to play one.

Why would you do indies as Fascist? Why not farms? Fascist has a food bonus and an oil bonus, but not an industrial production bonus - communism has the industrial production bonus.

And why the heck are you asking the price you should sell military at? You're going to sell military more than once during the set...

You didn't even specify what server when asking what networth you'd get.

i think she's planning grabbing fasc but still.

Dunno yet Rockman just crunching numbers, and trying to figure out how to keep such a country alive and gaining networth.

Express server btw. approx 1830 turns.

questions
is it useable for early set protection
is it a viable strat for war gaining

just preliminary questions.

what are it's weaknesses in a flat out war?

like Marshal said a grabbing reset, which may very well escalate into having to war at least one country maybe more.

If you're going to be an indy, you should be communism. Fascist won't be too horrible, but there's no reason to do a fascist indy. Fascist had an indy production bonus a LONG time ago, but that's gone now.

An indy bonus on a Fascist would just overpower them, and saturate the market with oil and food.

I suppose the the main question would be...

Is there a market price for food and oil where a Fascist would beat a commie hands down? Mainly oil because this would be the main production. Any food production would mainly just be eaten by the troops.

the initial setup I was thinking was

about 12580k acres with 5200 Indies and 5200 oil rigs 180 CS and 2k farms.. I hit the wall at about turn 1620... i.e no military resell and military costs are too high, even with biz res tech.

it's the last 200 turns (which cost about 500-750 mil) if I can break thru then i may be looking at a 20 mil net+ country. The extra costs drop the country back into the 16 mil net range +-2 mil.

oil is very unpredictable, 1 set its high so more oilers on next set and that way supply>demand, all need bushels (except farmers) but only some need oil.

hehe, yeah the oil market is a bear to figure out, but it is the only commodity that would make a 30 mil net fascist even possible.

You can mix farms and oil rigs as a fascist and do well, but I would advise against building any industrial complexes (aside from whats needed for spy production). If you want to mix industrial complexes and farms, it'd make sense to use communism (for both the industrial production bonus, and the tech effectiveness bonus, since you would need a lot of industrial and agricultural techs). Commie Indy/farmer mix still is probably inferior to straight indy, although if military prices go to $100 for jets/turrets, the indy/farmer mix might be able to hold its own.

To beat a communism is hard because of their ability to destock, so I would say you need $45+ bushels minimum in order to beat a Commie, more likely $50+ bushels.

what if oil could hold at an average of 175-180 for a reset?

would an indy/oiler with the indies producing military to hold be worth it...the oil offsets the need to sell military.

of course it's a major assumption oil would hold at those prices and that the market is big enough to sustain the amounts needing to be sold.

Alliance server war reset maybe...???

If oil stays at 175/180, then you should be maybe 50-50 oil rigs and farms. Producing military rather than buying it isn't worth it as a Fascist.

hmmm... i know i'm digging my heals in here, but why would not having to buy military be a bad thing for a Fascist?

Maybe a different way of looking at is at what market price point is it better for a Fascist to produce military vs. buying?

Granted the market provides ample opportunity to buy turrets at $90-$115. Which is essentially better or like buying tanks from your PM as an MBR.

Actually it was the market conditions above which gave me the idea. If a commie can finish at 20 mil with prices being that low and selling off portions of their production, then there must be something to producing military vs. buying.

Producing your military instead of buying it is a bad thing for a Fascist because Communism has a 35% industrial production bonus and they'll normally have 140-150% industrial technology. Those stack to give them basically double the industrial production of a Fascist with no industrial technology. On the other hand, a Fascist will have +15% food production and 200%+ agricultural technology, giving them over double the food production of a Communism with no agricultural technology. That's why its best for Communism to produce military and sell it to Fascists, and to buy food from Fascists, while Fascists produce food and sell it to Communists and buy military from Communists.

Trying to maintain high levels of both agricultural and industrial technology, while not having the communism's +35% industrial production bonus, and also trying to get military tech, weapons tech, etc. is too difficult.

I did calculations on indy/farmer mix before, and it seemed pretty competitive. Considering the 10% commission selling military to buy food, and then the 10% commission buying the food, ... and a server like Primary where food goes through a period over $50... But having to buy Ag tech, plus the comparative weakness of those farms later in the set when food price crashes to $36, 37. I don't know. Last set I was keeping all my farms I captured from other countries in grabs, but then decided it wasn't enough farms to warrant Ag tech probably, and food price was not going up at all, and when I tore them down, I had so much land at that point that it was very expensive to rebuild them, heh.

The problem is that your destock won't be as effective. You'll get a bigger stock (if military prices drop as low as they did last set), but destocking will take longer and not be as efficient.

Well, as you destock taking turns you still have to eat a lot of food. Self-producing that food appears better to a certain point. If jets/turrets sell at $130 and bushels sell at $37, that's about the breaking even point.

1.86 * 1.35 * 1.58 * 130 * .9 = $464.2 per acre you could spend on food

5.3 * 2.15 * 37 * 1.1 = $463.8 amount of food you can produce per acre * 1.1 (commission if you were to buy that food)

Am I making an error? Or is it just that those military goods usually sell over $130 at that point?

I'm actually thinking oil to sustain the indies on a fascist country. the main differences being there would be no military being sold, and if oil is sold at a high enough price, it could also be used to stockpile. very few farms needed to offset the need for bushels. -- low acreage 12.5k max

Food (Fascist):

(((Farms * 5.3) + (Unused Acres * 0.4)) * GovFoodBonus * AgriTech) * (MarkePprice - (MarketPrice * Tax)) = per acre

(((1*5.3)+(0*0.04))*1.15*2.2)*(35-(35*0.06)) = 441.1561

13.409 Units Per Acre

35 --- 441.1561
37 --- 466.36502
40 --- 504.1784
45 --- 567.2007
50 --- 630.223
55 --- 693.2453
60 --- 756.2676
65 --- 819.2899
70 --- 882.3122
75 --- 945.3345

Fascist Oil:

((OilRigs * 2) * GovOilBonus * Tech ) * (marketprice - (marketprice * Tax)) = per acre

=((1*2)*1.75*1)*(100-(100*0.06))= 329

3.5 Units Per Acre

100 --- 329
110 --- 361.9
120 --- 394.8
130 --- 427.7
140 --- 460.6
150 --- 493.5
160 --- 526.4
170 --- 559.3 <<-- Similar to selling Bushels at $45
180 --- 592.2
190 --- 625.1 <<-- Similar to selling Bushels at $50
200 --- 658
210 --- 690.9
220 --- 723.8
230 --- 756.7
240 --- 789.6
250 --- 822.5
260 --- 855.4
270 --- 888.3 <<-- Similar to selling Bushels at $70
280 --- 921.2
290 --- 954.1 <<-- Similar to selling Bushels at $75
300 --- 987

Fascist Indy

((Indies * 1.86) * GovIndyBonus * IndyTech) * (marketprice - (marketprice * Tax)) = per acre

((1*1.86)*1*1.5)*(100-(100*0.06))= 262.26

2.79 Units Per Acre

100 --- 262.26
105 --- 275.373
110 --- 288.486
115 --- 301.599
120 --- 314.712
125 --- 327.825
130 --- 340.938
135 --- 354.051
140 --- 367.164
145 --- 380.277
150 --- 393.39
155 --- 406.503
160 --- 419.616
165 --- 432.729
170 --- 445.842
175 --- 458.955
180 --- 472.068
185 --- 485.181
190 --- 498.294
195 --- 511.407
200 --- 524.52
205 --- 537.633

However it is not how much can be sold but how much can be made on some other commodity in order to keep what was produced by the indies.

production*acres*net = Net Per Turn
(Net Per Turn * Turns Remaining) = Net Per Acre

2.79 * 1 * 0.6 = 1.674 Net Per Acre Per Turn
1.674 * 1000 = 1,674 Net Per 1k turns

Acres --- Net Gained
1,000 --- 1,674,000
1,500 --- 2,511,000
2,000 --- 3,348,000
2,500 --- 4,185,000
3,000 --- 5,022,000
3,500 --- 5,859,000
4,000 --- 6,696,000
4,500 --- 7,533,000
5,000 --- 8,370,000
5,500 --- 9,207,000

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The reasons behind saying it is what is kept that matters, vs. what is sold or how much it is sold for is being derived from looking at the commie indie numbers.

Commie Indy

((Indies * 1.86) * GovIndyBonus * IndyTech) * (marketprice - (marketprice * Tax)) = per acre

3.7665 Units Per Acre

=((1*1.86)*1.35*1.5)*(100-(100*0.1)) = 338.985

100 --- 338.985
105 --- 355.93425
110 --- 372.8835 <<--- $ 30 Bushels
115 --- 389.83275 <<--- $ 120 Oil
120 --- 406.782
125 --- 423.73125 <<--- $ 130 Oil
130 --- 440.6805 <<--- $ 35 Bushels
135 --- 457.62975 <<--- $ 140 Oil
140 --- 474.579
145 --- 491.52825 <<--- $ 150 Oil
150 --- 508.4775 <<--- $ 40 Bushels
155 --- 525.42675 <<--- $ 160 Oil
160 --- 542.376
165 --- 559.32525 <<--- $ 170 Oil
170 --- 576.2745 <<--- $ 45 Bushels
175 --- 593.22375 <<--- $ 180 Oil
180 --- 610.173
185 --- 627.12225 <<--- $ 50 Bushels
190 --- 644.0715
195 --- 661.02075 <<--- $ 200 Oil
200 --- 677.97
205 --- 694.91925 <<--- $ 55 Bushels

Bushels at 40-45 is common, but turrets at $150-$170 not as common. So something else is driving the Commie's Net Gain.

Especially when a commie is pulling 30% more net:
while sustaining much higher military expenses and having to buy bushels. If they are stocking bushels it is an even bigger hit with the taxes during stock - destock phases.

I am thinking the net has to be coming from what they can keep... am I reading the numbers correctly ?

I keep asking myself what the heck am I missing when looking at these numbers? Is the interpretation correct or what is the missing ingredient that I am not seeing?


3.7665 *1 * 0.6 = 2.2599 Net Per Acre Per Turn
2.2599 * 1000 = 2259.9 Net Per 1k turns -- vs.(Fascist 1674)

Acres --- Net Gained
1,000 --- 2,259,900
1,500 --- 3,389,850
2,000 --- 4,519,800
2,500 --- 5,649,750
3,000 --- 6,779,700
3,500 --- 7,909,650
4,000 --- 9,039,600
4,500 --- 10,169,550
5,000 --- 11,299,500
5,500 --- 12,429,450

Your comparison isn't quite accurate. You assume 218,353 agri tech points on the fascist (assuming 12.5k acres), but just 127,110 industrial tech points on the communist (also assuming 12.5k acres).

You're also not factoring in that a Communist will keep/use rather than sell a lot of its military (not sure on the exact percentage range), whereas a fascist uses under 5% of what it produces.

Also, a fascist will lose a portion of its food production to decay. Lastly, you didn't factor in the Fascist's tax revenue penalty, or the communism's indirect tax revenue boost of its increased tech effectiveness (which results in increased business and residential tech levels compared to other governments with the same amount of tech).

But most importantly, when a communism destock, it destocks by taking turns, and it gets a very high $/nw. Communism is a much slower destock, but much more efficient, too.


But the quick answer that you need is that a Fascist can properly mix oil rigs and farms, but they should not have industrial complexes for any purpose other than producing spies.

"a Communist will keep/use rather than sell a lot of its military"

I was actually counting on this fact.

The tech percentages are a huge hill to overcome. I doubt the country will be competitive against a commie.

Maybe a different way of asking the question would be:
As a comparison; with oil at the right price would a Fascist Oiler do better with indies or with farms?

If I'm doing the math right, and it is highly possible i am doing it wrong.

the break even point seems to be food at 30.89827728
taxes not included

selling food on the PM @ 35 = turrets needing to be purchased @ $70 to match the 30.89827728 break even point (turret taxes being deducted from the food sell price)

or

selling bushels at $40 on the market would allow for purchasing turrets @ $112 with the same effect.

so , unless a farmer has a guaranteed supply of cheap turrets the indies should do better. It seems counter intuitive. I know there are other factors to consider i.e. the higher cost per turn and the additional 400-500 mil in tech needed. Unless the country replaces agri tech with indy tech in which case the additional tech expense is minimal at best.

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hehe I'm trying to figure out a way to squeeze 20 mil out of an all-x fascist country on express... I could land grab and achieve it but then that would defeat the purpose or ignore a major piece of the set goal.

with 150% indy tech, 1 industrial complex produces 2.8 jets or turrets
with 210% agri tech, 1 farm produced 12.8 bushels of food

12.8/2.8 = a bit more than 4.5


So if military prices are 4.5x the price of food, the a fascist indy will make about the same as a fascist farmer. Which means that farmer will almost always be better than indy.

You're doing the math wrong if you're getting the conclusion that a fascist indy will do better than a fascist farmer.

@Rockman, what is the formula for industrial complexes?
I haven't kept up with the formulas but according to my knowledge industrial complex is like research labs, the more percentage of indies you have the more indies produce each, while farms like oil rigs are linear.

A few other considerations to consider:
1.) Indies blow hard if you are producing troops/tanks with them. 2.) Having to get your units from production each turn increases your military expenses which will cause you to lose a LOT of money. (Just go ask a commie on how much they lose on the increased ME from the start of the turns to the end of his turns).
3.) On the same token, having to wait for your indies to produce the necessary jets to make your attacks can't compete when you are just sitting on a bunch of cash and buying jets as needed.
4.) Stockpiling with bushels and oil rigs is a lot more efficient than stockpiling with indies and oil rigs.

Nope qwerty. Indies are not percentage based.

Each indy builds (1.86 * indyTech% * govtBonus) troops per turn if 100% is allocated to it. The same value (1.86 * indyTech% * govtBonus) for jets and turrets as well, and 0.4 instead of 1.86 for tanks. That is, 100% allocation to turrets produces the best selling revenue on the Private Market in your first 100 turns.

Only Labs, Res, Bus and MBs work on % built, while Rigs, Farms and Indies are linear.

what I find interesting though is that the indy startup get a better net than just straight farm and buying. Even when turrets are low cost on the market.

this is an indicator that military build up is more efficient at the start with indies than farms.

maybe it's a fast start with high indies (1500-2000) than switch the indies out to oil @ 1.5 mil turrets?

the darn oil market is so jacked in express, the fluctuations are insane.