My buddies and I just had a long conversation on Facebook about this.

I have so many problems with this decision...

1. As a society, we're moving towards gender equality. Actually, we're moving beyond that. We're moving towards a world in which gender doesn't even matter. We're all people. Yet, in cases of violence against women, our patriarchal foundation comes roaring through. And I don't like it. If he had punched his brother in that elevator, he might have gotten a fine, or a small suspension. That's ridiculous. And what if a WNBA player had been caught punching or slapping her husband in a bar? Would she have been given a similar punishment? Probably not.

2. The "Victim" in this didn't seek punishment, married him anyway, and is being hurt by the way her husband is being treated. We're trying to protect women, and Janay is part of that. Fine. But doesn't the public realize a) this woman isn't asking for help, and b) by calling for Rice to be permanently banned you're taking away her family's livelihood? How is this helping anybody? (and let's be clear here... these moves by Baltimore and the NFL are 100% public relations and are dictated by the public outcry, just as the NBA's reaction to Sterling)

3. The NFL is so ass backwards with its punishments that it's ridiculous. "Under the league's current policy for substance abuse, a first-time offender [of DUI] generally faces a fine of two game checks, but no suspension." A DUI gets you a fine. DRUNK DRIVERS KILL PEOPLE. And that gets you a fine. I'd understand if Rice had displayed a pattern of domestic abuse. And this is why the comparison to Sterling earlier is not so good, as he HAD shown a pattern of racism. But as far as we know, and as far as Janay is telling us, this is a one time isolated incident. They were clearly having an argument, she shoved and charged at him during the argument. This isn't about some oppressive and abusive man who slaps his wife for not taking the seeds out of the watermelon. And the public as well as players are calling for a permanent ban? That's crazy. Also - Ray Lewis killed a man.

4. The NFL wants to position itself as a leader in America. Then fluffing lead. Haven't we established over centuries of crime that punishment is not an effective deterrent? The NFL needs to teach and educate people about domestic violence, not take away this man's entire life. That won't stop anything. People will just make sure that there's no camera around. If I were Goodell, I'd have held a press conference and stood up there together with Ray and Janay. I would've discussed how inexcusable and disgusting Rice's actions were. I would have talked about domestic violence around America and the effects it can have on women and children and families. I would have had Rice publicly apologize to his now wife for what he did. I would have talked about how the NFL are leaders and role models for young men across the country. I would have established some sort of a fund to not only help victims of domestic violence, but also educate young men before they start and rehabilitate those who have already engaged in this crap. I would have suspended Rice for 8 games, and donated those 8 paychecks to this fund. And, in those 8 weeks, I would have sent Rice around the US to every single NFL city to run workshops and engage in public speaking about the mistakes he made, the consequences of those mistakes, how lucky he is to be given this second chance not only by his wife but also by his employer, and hopefully to help stop this fluff from happening in other homes around the US. That's leadership. That takes balls.

dude. puff puff give.

You mean, you cant just throw money and a PR team at a problem and make it go away?

1) RE someone hitting their brother versus striking a spouse/SO: one's called battery. the other one is called domestic violence. they're two very different charges and thusly have different punishments. when you mentioned similar punishment - everyone's sadly punished differently. Take two people who got a DUI. Depending on one's socioeconomic status, you could get a punishment on the lower end of the scale if you have a good lawyer who costs a lot of money, or you can be given a very harsh punishment if you don't have a lawyer. it's not exactly fair that not everyone has the same level of representation in court, but that's the way it is. which leads to different punishments for even smiliar crimes.

2) many states have started changing their DV laws, where it doesn't matter if the abused person wants to press charges or not - they (the state) will still go after them in court. law enforcement was getting tired of being called out to a domestic violence call to see someone with bruises/cuts/blood/black eyes only to have them tell the cops that 'no billy jo redneck didn't do this, i don't want to press charges he's a good guy!' only to have the same thing happen again and again. in short - when it comes to DV - it sorta doesn't matter what she wants.

3) 'But as far as we know, and as far as Janay is telling us, this is a one time isolated incident.' people that are being abused tend not to be all public about 'yeah he's beating the fluff out of me daily' if you fear someone, you're not going to risk getting them upset by talking about anything taht will set them off. she could very well be under his control, and fearing for her safety so that's why she's hush hush about things. that's whats difficult about DV - you can't really believe the victim in regards to 'is this the only time he's beaten you? or does he beat you often'? sorta sounds terrible, but it's better for the cops/society to err on the side of caution and not quite believe her answer completely for the sake of her safety.

and then you finish the third point with a little bit of racism, nice.

all in all i think your post is stupid and your opinions ont his subject are worthy of me wiping my butt with them.

Just to be clear, which decision are you referring to? The Ravens releasing him or the NFL suspending him indefinitely? Because I 100% agree with the Ravens decision, I imagine you do as well. The NFL issue is a little trickier.

The topic that is not being discussed is that if this wasn't caught on camera, he would've received a slap on the wrist, small fine, 1-2 game suspension tops. It was a vicious punch and I would never hit a woman, but the fact we all saw it is a bad look for the NFL... so they have to save face.

A la Michael Vick - if videos surfaced of him fighting and executing dogs after his prison sentence, the NFL definitely would not have given him another shot - due to bad press.

At the end of the day, I understand where you're coming from with the gender equality pieces... but the NFL is a business and reserve the right to keep their best interests in mind. Bad press goes against their best interests. As an American, living in a free country, I'm OK with their decision.

Trife, you're a moron. You're basically saying "this is how it is because it is how it is." Yes, I know that. I'm saying it *shouldn't* be that way. And how is saying that Ray Lewis killed a man racist? Please look up racism before you make a fool of yourself.

Eric - yes, the NFL decision, not the Ravens. You're right. It's a business, and they're well within their rights to do what they did; just as the NBA was within their rights to do what they did to Sterling. I just don't like how these decisions can be made based almost entirely on the public's initial reaction to an issue. We're hearing now that there is a longer video that includes audio that the AP has in which Janay is cursing at Rice and spit in his face. The video shows her charging at him when he delivered the knockout punch. There is more to this than "he hit her." It's like as soon as anybody sees "male hit female" it's all over, and nothing else matters at all. I hate the public reaction to this. I hate the NFL giving in to that public reaction. And I hate that people think this move will do a God damn thing to stop domestic abuse from happening somewhere else. The NFL has the opportunity to affect real change in terms of violence against women, and all they're doing is saving face.

Sadly, the PR outlook pretty much always drives these decisions. I agree that it would be nice for the league to try to help players in bad situations, but why would they bother? It's just extra work for them. I'm not saying that there is no help available, I know that the NFL does have a small assistance program, but in large part the owners and the NFL are just in it to make money.
When they cut a player, there will be 50 guys standing in line to take his spot. I'm sure we all realize that there is certainly no lack of talented athletes trying to make it to the NFL. So why bother to wasting resources on rehabilitation? Granted that Ray Rice is a talented RB and the person that replaces him won't be at the same level, but the Baltimore Ravens starting a lower caliber RB won't hurt their ticket sales one bit. When a player screws up and makes the NFL product look bad in any way, they can remove the source of the problem and very easily move on.

I think that since we're discussing the actions of a black player, he was talking about your reference to a common stereotype:

As if it's not enough that this topic is all over the news, now it made it to EE....

/off button

Seriously? I actually just made that up... obviously not that common of a stereotype.

But Waseem - they aren't removing the player because of his impact on the NFL. They're removing him because of violence against women. They're playing this off to be about violence against women, not an NFL player making them look bad. So if they want to make it about violence against women, fine. I'm all for it. Do something to help.

no, dumbass. how in your mind did you think i meant the ray lewis part was racist? lol seriously?

i was referring to this gem:

This isn't about some oppressive and abusive man who slaps his wife for not taking the seeds out of the watermelon.






lol, seriously? instead of justthinking you're trolling, i'll ask: where abouts in the world do you live?

poor decision on the nfls part.

he had already acknowledge he punched her and knocked her out

he was found guilty and suspended two games.

no saying it was right or anything on his part, but it was a single punch. something we all already knew . he didnt lie about punching her. i half expected to see him hit her a half of dozen times from the way it was portraid the past few days in the news about the video.

i mean, the nfl asked to see the video and was denied in the first place. they knew what had happened, all that video did was suport what actually happened.. not sure why they went with the indefinte suspension when the new rules they put into place is first time offnders are 6 games, then a lifeitme ban.

they kinda went back on there word there on this subject already.

It's actually a very common stereotype. Second only to the black people loving fried chicken stereotype.

And we're gonna have to disagree on why the NFL is doing this. They say it's because of violence against women, but they don't give a fluff about that. Nor do they care about drunk driving, or drug use, or any other problem that the players have. I think it's entirely about the league trying to save face and protect their product. Professional sports are always willing to do just enough that people will stop their complaining.

This is a little tangent, but I think it's the same reason that professional sports have taken such a weakass stance on PEDs. Big plays, big stats, and big wins = more fans and more money. Players taking PEDs actually alters the outcomes of games..whether it's a pitcher somehow going from mediocrity to 20 wins and 250 strikeouts, or football players getting 20 sacks or 15 touchdowns, or batters miraculously jumping to 40 home runs a year..these things can have big impacts on the outcomes but major league sports don't do nearly enough to address it because PED use actually improves their product.

It's caught media attention in the past 10 years or so, and because of that the MLB or NFL will dish out a suspension here or there to make it look like they're addressing the issue. Yet players openly say that it's been going on for a long long time and that there are plenty of people using PEDs. But fans love no hitters, they love sacks and touchdowns, and they definitely love home runs.

Toronto, Canada? lol. I honestly never heard of that before.

I agree with most of what Hawkeye has said.

I think that if they are going to press charges against Ray, than they need to press charges against his wife as well since she committed the initial assault (spitting on someone is assault and people do get charged for it).

My biggest concern though is the inherent sexism in it. If the roles were reverses the female would not be in near this much trouble, and that has always been BS.

domestic violence against men is an issue, but society shrugs it off:

http://en.wikipedia.org/...stic_violence_against_men

i wonder how long it'll be until the ravens dedicate a statue outside of their stadium for ray rice

you all scare the hell out of me. This was something that the media blew up, and made it the second coming of Christ.

His than fiancée, now WIFE, enuff said.

The NFL and the Ravens should b sued. Rice should sue them for double jeopardy, and defamation of character.

They both reneged on their punishment, and changed their decision. What good is it to ruin this mans life and also his family's future. None.

At most he should get the new rules made up AFTER his first suspension 6 games. He was sentenced to two games and counseling. That should b his punishment.

yes there is sexism, the scales of justice are certainly unbalanced in many aspects.

Hell the police neer even charged him. And most prosecutors will pick up the charges even if the spouse says they wont testify. They have the spouse defined as a hostile witness, and they subpoena her/it/him to appear and tell the facts. They didn't even indite the man.

We could discuss this for years and it wont change much of anything. The media took this and ran with it. Hell they didn't even give this much airtime to dogfighting senor Vick.

Just sayin....

so much stupid

'Rice should sue them for double jeopardy, and defamation of character.'

double jeopardy doesn't exist in the NFL. the NFL != a court of law. defamation of character? LOL that lawsuit would faceplant so quickly. 'Your honor I knocked the fluff out of my fiance, you suspended me for it and that's defamation!!!'

'What good is it to ruin this mans life and also his family's future.'

It's unfortunate, but perhaps that's something that Jenay and Ray should've weighed or contemplated before they made a series of terrible decisions that fateful night.

'Hell the police neer even charged him.'

That's odd. Because he's got a third-degree charge of aggravated assault on his record until he completes his diversion. Also, the police don't 'charge' people. The DA/prosecutor's office charges folks.

'Hell they didn't even give this much airtime to dogfighting senor Vick.'

Uhhhh, clearly you were not watching the news when that happened. It was talked about nonstop for days/weeks.

like i said at the beginning of my post, your post was chock full o stupid

lol you a funny man, wrong but funny

ciao

Police do charge you with crimes..it can be upped, lowered or dropped by a DA though

Although, investigators collect eveidence then present to a prosecutor or DA for them to indict/charge

^^^^^^^

All in personal experience.

not that i support hitting women, as i said in the other thread, but i find one aspect about this incredibly weird

the couple obviously cleared their fluff up. they still got married, and the wife has recently released statments suporting her husband and talking about both parties regret about that night.

now, sure sure there are the stereotypical "the abused always defends the abuser" but thats usually in situations of constant abuse. i dont really see this as the case here.

i see trife said "they should of thought of the consequences before making bad decisions that night" and i couldnt pass that over.

do you think out and pro/con every decision you make? how about when drunk? angry? people make mistakes all the time. i have been known to make quite a few, if i was under a zero tolerance policy i might be in a really different place right now. granted hitting a woman is a different level of mistake, but a mistake none the less.

it is a factor we touched on in the other thread. a pattern of mistakes is one thing, one mistake should be something someone has an opportunity to atone for. he clearly has with his wife, it is unfortunate he cant with the public.

now, im leaving the possibility out there that i am wrong and ray rice is a POS wife beater, but i dont think that is the case here. that family's financial future was just ruined by a mistake they have both moved on from.


just my $0.02

cool, no refutation on any of my points. :) buh bye grandpa go play scrabble

yes, i do. it's just that a drunk or angry trife/rayrice/mrford might not care about the consequences of bad decisions in the heat of the moment. ones' state of mind or intoxicaiton doesn't change the fact that spitting on someone and left hooking someone are both terribad decisions.

'one mistake should be something someone has an opportunity to atone for'

people make mistakes, and he's catching a HUGGGEEEEE break by not being charged with a felony, by way of a pretrial diversion program. he's getting his second chance (in the legal system). however, in the court of public opinion, there isn't a right for a second chance. once you perform certain actions in life, even after you serve time for it, people (the public) are unwilling to give you a second chance. sex offense on your record and it was 20 years ago? tough fluff, you have to live 20 miles away from the closest child. get arrested for theft/embezzlement? good luck working anywhere in retail or that has a cash register in the next couple of decades.

actions have consequences

fighting and killing dogs will get the public to hate you

knocking your fiance unconscious in an elevator apparently makes the public hate you

doing the ice bucket challenge to an autistic kid with feces/urine and spit will make the public hate you

calling for the genocide of a people and take over half of europe, and the public will hate you.

he'll be back in the league within a few years as a comeback story. maybe he has a kid with his wife, then there's an easy narrative that he's a model father who made one mistake in the heat of the moment.

The NFL allows for all sort of abuses and players get away with it. As an employer they are the only ones that have historically:

Allowed "employees" to keep their jobs when tested positively for drugs or been arrested in possession of them...
Employed "felons" (as in the player have active felony arrest records) and propelled them to stardom...
Allows an "employee" to return to work after altercations with others involving deadly weapons (and in some cases, they shoot themselves in the leg)...

Let's face it, for rest of us "every day folks" if we did any of those things we would be unemployed period. Not suspended with a slap on hands. Fired.

And you try getting a job where you have a felony arrest record. At least any that pays decent. You can't.

Perhaps professional sports needs to just implement and adhere to a zero tolerance. You do the crime, you do the time as unemployed from that sport.

Sorry, Ray broke the law. It was on film. And regardless of circumstances hit an unarmed women who probable was drunk and knocked her out cold. And if you watch the way he dragged her out of the elevator and dumped her down like she was nothing says a lot about the guy. He didn't give a crap about her at that time. I didn't see any man bending down holding a woman in a caring way showing remorse. Nope. Cave man drag and drop.

Maybe he can get a job at Walmart. Serves him right and maybe, just maybe, some other players might think twice now.

Then i heard another argument, if it wasnt ray rice(semi-allstar) or some other big name player, would this even matter?

Well, Daryl Washington for the Arizona Cardinals is suspended for a year for something similar. If videos surfaced, he'd prob be in the same boat as Rice...

The NFL isn't consistent in the way they hand out punishment.

[quote poster=hawkeyee; 33200; 601311]My buddies and I just had a long conversation on Facebook about this.

I have so many problems with this decision...

1. As a society, we're moving towards gender equality. Actually, we're moving beyond that. We're moving towards a world in which gender doesn't even matter. We're all people. Yet, in cases of violence against women, our patriarchal foundation comes roaring through. And I don't like it. If he had punched his brother in that elevator, he might have gotten a fine, or a small suspension. That's ridiculous. And what if a WNBA player had been caught punching or slapping her husband in a bar? Would she have been given a similar punishment? Probably not.

2. The "Victim" in this didn't seek punishment, married him anyway, and is being hurt by the way her husband is being treated. We're trying to protect women, and Janay is part of that. Fine. But doesn't the public realize a) this woman isn't asking for help, and b) by calling for Rice to be permanently banned you're taking away her family's livelihood? How is this helping anybody? (and let's be clear here... these moves by Baltimore and the NFL are 100% public relations and are dictated by the public outcry, just as the NBA's reaction to Sterling)

3. The NFL is so ass backwards with its punishments that it's ridiculous. "Under the league's current policy for substance abuse, a first-time offender [of DUI] generally faces a fine of two game checks, but no suspension." A DUI gets you a fine. DRUNK DRIVERS KILL PEOPLE. And that gets you a fine. I'd understand if Rice had displayed a pattern of domestic abuse. And this is why the comparison to Sterling earlier is not so good, as he HAD shown a pattern of racism. But as far as we know, and as far as Janay is telling us, this is a one time isolated incident. They were clearly having an argument, she shoved and charged at him during the argument. This isn't about some oppressive and abusive man who slaps his wife for not taking the seeds out of the watermelon. And the public as well as players are calling for a permanent ban? That's crazy. Also - Ray Lewis killed a man.

4. The NFL wants to position itself as a leader in America. Then fluffing lead. Haven't we established over centuries of crime that punishment is not an effective deterrent? The NFL needs to teach and educate people about domestic violence, not take away this man's entire life. That won't stop anything. People will just make sure that there's no camera around. If I were Goodell, I'd have held a press conference and stood up there together with Ray and Janay. I would've discussed how inexcusable and disgusting Rice's actions were. I would have talked about domestic violence around America and the effects it can have on women and children and families. I would have had Rice publicly apologize to his now wife for what he did. I would have talked about how the NFL are leaders and role models for young men across the country. I would have established some sort of a fund to not only help victims of domestic violence, but also educate young men before they start and rehabilitate those who have already engaged in this crap. I would have suspended Rice for 8 games, and donated those 8 paychecks to this fund. And, in those 8 weeks, I would have sent Rice around the US to every single NFL city to run workshops and engage in public speaking about the mistakes he made, the consequences of those mistakes, how lucky he is to be given this second chance not only by his wife but also by his employer, and hopefully to help stop this fluff from happening in other homes around the US. That's leadership. That takes balls. [/quote]

Hawkeye I agree with everything you said until I saw the Ray Lewis killing a person bit. You REALLY need to read up on that and fix that kind of ignorance. He killed no one. He covered for friends and testified against them if I remember right but they also got acquitted. Anything that would have been proven would have likely been self defense anyways. Ray Lewis killed no one. Not even in self defense. End of story. Educate yourself before you speak about it.

How do you know locket? Were you there? Mmmmm hmmmm

He knows because it's been written about a million times. Ray Lewis' role in the 2000 murder investigation is well documented. He originally lied to the cops about being there and was arrested and charged with first-degree murder. During the trial, he testified to the actual events on the night and his charges were brought down to obstruction of justice.
I believe locket is correct that his friends were acquitted

How dare you question me Req!

how do we know she didnt marry him out of fear?

I missed the watermelon comment and was rather confused as to why you though the ray lewis comment was racist as well. I just thought the first one was funny.

I think I mostly agree with the high level of this. The NFL does everything it can to make the product on the field as dull and uniform as possible. They don't want super stars. They don't market individuals. They don't care what fans think....until it hurts the brand as a whole.

This is completely shameless how they went from a slap on the wrist to a lifetime ban because of a video being released. I mean really there's a video that shows what we all pretty much assumed happened and NOW we're upset? A mutant hits a woman hard enough to knock her out...yeah that video was if anything milder than I'd have thought.

You're right it was the same thing with Sterling and now the Atlanta owner? Danny Ferry makes a joke about Nigera and a player from there indirectly...the country for which the Nigerian Prince scam comes from and that's racist?

We've gone beyond a PC culture and are now dealing with a gross over reactionary culture where if we see something we panic, we go to social media and create a huge crap storm, nothing is thought out or reasoned, and we get crap results.

At this point since I don't play fantasy I more or less have stopped even watching the NFL, they truly have sucked any joy or fun out of the game. This is just one more example of the absurdity of the league. The NBA hasn't declared war on making the games fun to watch, but they're sure as hell trying to make a circus out of the off season to exploit our new social media driven culture. Hell is it possible the US senate is the last bastion of reasonable pace and sensibility? Did I just type that?

seriously though, the dude punched his wife, he should be shot not just losing his job...

In his defense she was coming right at him!

BTW did he hit her and then she came at him or was that just his arm moving? Hard to tell...if he hit her and she came at him, I think we have a case of self defense! There is simply no excuse for a woman to attack a guy the size of ray rice! People like that should be locked up as they're a danger to themselves.

Funny statements of fact aside, I really did like what Stephan A Smith said on this topic. Women really do have to accept blame for these things. Getting physical and provoking people even if you're smaller and weaker is unacceptable. Nobody is ever going to condone the man punching a woman, but at some point honest discussions on the reality of violence has to be accepted. I have a sister who well...she was in a pretty abusive relationship. It's all fine and good to say I man should never strike a woman, but in my sister's case she wasn't THAT much smaller than him. It's pretty hard to blame a guy with a bloody nose for striking back. It's equally hard to not blame someone from not getting out of a bad relationship (took 6 months of this crap before my sister realized maybe it wasn't working out).

Yes a guy the size of Ray Rice has incredible power and should know how to control himself, but just because you're the biggest guy in the room doesn't mean you have more self control than the small guy next to you. There's a reason men back down when a guy his size threatens violence...we know what he can do. There's no way I run at him like that. Why in the hell was this woman trying to get physically violent with him?

hawkeye's original post was in no way racist. stop being ridiculous.

interesting perspective.

1. I'm not sure gender equality will ever apply to domestic abuse. we tend to want to protect those weaker than us. women are seen as physically weaker than men, in this case it is most especially true, thus women are not to be physically harmed. imo, if a woman puts her hands on a man, she is asking for retaliation. I don't believe anyone should have to be subjected to physical battery no matter how harmless.

The other aspect is that domestic abuse is ugly. it differs from a random encounter with a stranger. i imagine he would still have his job if that were a woman he met earlier in the night.

2. it's hard to trust the victim in domestic abuse cases. it could be fear, complacency and internalization, or a combination of those. it is up to her to leave and if she doesn't and proceeds to marry the guy then i say let 'em go. they seemed to have moved on. i also get the impression this was a one off incident.

3. no comment

4. i agree 100%. they could have made a fine example out of rice and done something positive from the start. instead, they are following the mob.

They are not *seen* as physically weaker, they ARE physically weaker. The failure to acknowledge basic, obvious physiological differences between the sexes is not helping our society at present.

My biggest problem with the re-punishment is that they already knew what happened and decided on a punishment. The video leaking out doesn't change the incident and, while the original punishment was undoubtedly too lenient, it was already handed down. This double jeopardy is sure to cause a big headache with the union, it is a bad precedent, and it is stupid. Again, THEY ALREADY KNEW WHAT HAPPENED when they decided on the first punishment.

i agree that they are (in most cases). i wasn't trying to imply otherwise.

lol, locket. It was a joke.

its like that with everything though. hearing about one thing and actually seeing it gives you two different reactions because seeing it makes it real. its like when you hear about ISIS beaheading people, sounds terrible and upsetting, until you see a video of it happening then it fires up all kinds of other emotions.

im not saying he deserves any more punishment after having seen the video, but its why people are all the sudden up in arms about it. i think banning him from the NFL is fluffing retarded when you consider people like vick actually went to prison for a crime he commited and was allowed back in the NFL. ray got drunk, got into a dispute with his woman and hit her in the heat of the moment. doesnt excuse him hitting a girl but it should be taken into account.

have you ever seen a video of isis beheading people. i dont think there are any. they fade to black before they draw blood

I haven't been able to watch sports channels for days. Everyone calm the fluff down

Hmmm

According to USA today report, a police officer came forth with a voicemail and said he delivered the tape in april to the NFL

This 'breaking news' is what I'm talking about.. it's all over the media today. Who gives a fluff? If it's news to everyone that sports leagues are corrupt and only care about money, get your heads out of your asses. This is the millionth case of domestic violence in the NFL, and if it takes a video to raise any kind of significant outcry then society is missing something. This is getting more attention than 2 years ago when a Chiefs player shot his girlfriend and then drove himself to the facility and shot himself in front of his coaching staff

no offense meant to you bstrong