LOL!!! FORBIDDEN! BECAUSE IT IS AGAINST THE LAW TO MOVE UP FROM MINIMUM WAGE ON YOUR OWN.

I told you to have a look at Human Action... clearly you cannot read. If you read the book and put some thought behind what motivates individuals, you would understand where you took the wrong turn in your pathetic life.

Huge fail on making a market-based reply there buddy. Think about it, it's obvious that absorbing the cost rather than passing it on to consumers could lead to lower prices and thus a greater market share, right? And thus greater profits. Basic fluff

If your post is in response to mine, nothing changes. Just because they get a pay raise doesn't mean they can afford a nice dinner once a month. Food service is already nearly unsustainable, the smart ones will use such a change to increase menu prices enough to compensate and then some, the dumb ones will be gone.

Symac do you really believe the dribble you post?

Okay blid, I guess you really are trolling. You got me too.

If you seriously believe what you are saying, I feel sorry for you or jealous. I wish I could just have the blinders on and trot ignorantly through my life without knowing the truths or that your reality was real.

God what is wrong with you? Saying "no minimum wage worker should be allowed to earn even half what I earn!" is fluffed up. It's insistence on being better than people, and not simply better than, but demanding the right to be twice the earner that other people are. It has nothing to do with the actual labor people are doing. He's simply saying, "these minimum wage workers should not be earning half what I earn!" What the hell?

Let's see, I have the experience and budgets of dozens of restaurants to know the condition of food service. I have the experiences and budgets of hundreds of small businesses. I have experience on every side of large businesses, especially on the receiving end of distribution.

I think I have a pretty accurate view on how business really works, and a unique and depressing view on how public companies operate.

Sigh, I want you to thrive blid, but you are utterly missing the point here.

fluff me ok, I am just an elitist prick that dared to try and rise above my humble upbringing. fluff me, I deserve it.

But what about the guy making $16 an hour? What about him? He's put in a few years and suddenly all of the new hires are making what he had to work 4-5 year to get, has he been devalued? If all of Americas workforce with 0-3 years experience gets their pay doubled and all of the workforce with 20+ years experience gets nothing, is that ok?

Do you grasp that? I don't give a fluff what anybody else makes, I make what I make and I don't ask/don't care what my coworkers make, but I DO understand value. I expect to be compensated in accordance to the VALUE I bring to.my employer

still mad that other people will make more in proportion to what you make. still stupid. who cares if other people start making close to what the $16/hr guy makes? really? does that hurt the $16/hr guy in any way?

how can you say it does? inflation? inflation has nothing to do with minimum wage bro. so? the typical argument against minimum wage, just to help you out, is that it'd increase unemployment. not that i agree with it, but which has nothing to do with your nonsense arguments, you know?

It will drag the $16/hr into basically making minimum wage. If said guy was supporting a family, trying to hang on to his house, trying to have a nice vacation some day, hoping to retire some day... It's all gone. All so minimum wage could be tricked into thinking they were being paid more.

Lol obviously he is.

No they will not qualify for the same aid. Math. http://familiesusa.org/...ederal-poverty-guidelines



Indeed. To state again, an average fast food worker is *twenty nine years old*. Not a kid, and just as likely has one or two children. Compared to even fifteen years ago, the manufacturing jobs are largely gone; there's three applicants for every available position. It's certainly not a market in which the lesser skilled can get on-the-job training. Shall high school grads take on upper five-digit debt to get a degree when college grads are already pushing burgers?

And even $30k/year is not easy street by any means when raising a family. Quality of life is slipping. The hope that the next generation will have it better is waning.
We've seen what happens to the US educational standings globally when working class parents have to put in full time hours plus just to make ends meet. Education is put on the shoulders of underfunded public schools as neighborhoods deteriorate and property taxes plunge. It's a downward spiral, counterproductive even to the shortsighted corporatists.

We do need an economic system that encourages small business growth instead of the mega-corporate greed that has allowed the super-wealthy to reap 95% of the so-called "US economic recovery" since the 2007-08 fiasco. But we cannot count on the free market being fair when maximum profit to provide gold plated toilets for the super rich supersedes basic quality of life issues for the (failing) middle and working class. Does the current form of capitalism really have to go through the process of eating itself before we see the ultimate dead end?
http://blogs.wsj.com/...ins-went-to-wealthiest-1/

A wealthy man worth 50k or 100k times the worth of a typical middle class worker will never purchase 50k or 100k times the commodities. Don't believe the hype, he's not the job creator. He's stashing his money in ways to avoid paying his fair share of taxes while watching YOUR taxes subsidize his underpaid employees. He doesn't create demand buying three new luxury cars a year and ten nice suits. He doesn't create demand by pissing into a golden urinal on his private jet. Don't they teach that in two year business degrees any more?

SOMETIMES I LIKE TO DO A THING CALLED MATH! WAIT, DON'T GET ALL DESPONDENT YET! THIS CAN BE FUN!

FIRST SOME NUMBERS FROM THE FIRST ARTICLE I FOUND WHEN I GOOGLED. I'M ONLY CHECKING ONE BECAUSE I HAVE TO GET UP EARLY AND *WORK* FOR MY LIVING TOMORROW...

http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/228698

"According to a report on food franchising by Franchise Business Review, 51.5 percent of food franchises earn profits of less than $50,000 a year; roughly 7 percent top $250,000, with the average profit for all restaurants coming in at $82,033. That doesn't sound too bad, until you factor in the initial investment. Though some basic restaurant concepts cost less than $100,000 to open, many established brands require as much as $500,000 to start. And a full-service restaurant may require an initial investment of $1 million or more."

I THINK IF MY MATH IS RIGHT.. 51.5 PERCENT IS MORE THAN HALF. IF I'M RIGHT ABOUT THAT, HALF OF RESTAURANT FRANCHISES TURN A PROFIT OF LESS THAN $50K PER YEAR. THE K THERE STANDS FOR THREE MORE ZEROES. I KNOW ITS WEIRD, BUT WE BUSINESS OWNERS ARE LAZY AND DON'T LIKE TO TYPE ZEROES. WE USED TO BE ABLE TO PAY PEOPLE TO TYPE THEM FOR US, BUT WE HAD TO FIRE THOSE PEOPLE... THEY STARTED COSTING TOO MUCH.

NOW, I DON'T THINK I'VE EVER BEEN IN A FAST FOOD JOINT THAT HAD LESS THAN 4 PEOPLE WORKING. HERE COMES THE MATH!! READY??

IF THE RESTAURANT IS OPEN FROM 6 AM TO 10 PM, THAT'S UH.... HOLD ON... LET ME OPEN UP EXCEL HERE...
THAT'S 16 HOURS! TIMES 4 PEOPLE MAKES 64 MAN HOURS PER DAY. OH I'M SORRY. I DIDN'T MEAN TO GET ALL TECHNICAL. "MAN HOURS" IS THE TERM WE GREEDY CAPITALIST SCUM USE TO QUANTIFY THE AMOUNT OF LABOR WE FORCE PEOPLE TO DO.

OUR RESTAURANT IS CLOSED ON THANKSGIVING AND CHRISTMAS.. WE'RE OLD FASHIONED. SO, WE'RE ONLY OPEN 363 DAYS PER YEAR. EXCEPT LEAP YEARS.

THIS IS STARTING TO GET REALLY COMPLICATED NOW, BUT IF WE TAKE THE NUMBER OF DAYS WE'RE OPEN TIMES THE NUMBER OF MAN HOURS PER DAY.... 64 x 363 = 23,232 MAN HOURS! HOLY SMOKES! THAT'S A LOT OF SLAVE LABOR!

NOW, IF WE INCREASE THE PAY OF OUR EMPLOYEES BY 7 DOLLARS PER MAN HOUR... WAIT, THIS CAN'T BE RIGHT. I'VE RUN THIS NUMBER ON MY CALCULATOR, MY PHONE, AND EXCEL, AND I KEEP COMING UP WITH AN ADDED LABOR EXPENSE OF $162,624.00!

OH AND DON'T FORGET! WE'LL ALSO HAVE TO PAY THE 6.2% EMPLOYER'S CONTRIBUTION FOR SOCIAL "SECURITY", AND ANOTHER 1.45% FOR MEDICARE. THAT BRINGS OUR ACTUAL LABOR EXPENSE INCREASE UP TO $175,064.74

AND THEN THERE'S THE EMPLOYER'S CONTRIBUTION TO UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE... THAT ONE VARIES BY STATE THOUGH, AND I DON'T HAVE TIME TO DO 50 MORE FIGURES. IN MY STATE, IT'S AROUND 6%.. ANOTHER $10K OR SO.

SO, BY INCREASING OUR WORKER'S WAGE BY $7.00 PER HOUR, WE'VE GONE FROM MAKING $50,000 PER YEAR, TO LOSING ONLY $135,000 PER YEAR. EXCEPT LEAP YEARS. ON THOSE YEARS, WE'D LOSE A LITTLE MORE. THANK GOODNESS THEY DON'T COME AROUND ALL THAT OFTEN!

WE WON'T HAVE TO RAISE PRICES TO COVER THAT LOSS THOUGH. INSTEAD, WE'LL FIRE 3 OF THE PEOPLE, AND MAKE ONE PERSON DO ALL THE WORK. BY DOING THAT, WE'LL HAVE MANAGED TO STILL TURN A PROFIT OF A LITTLE UNDER $4,000 PER YEAR.

AND, BY DOUBLING THE MINIMUM WAGE, WE'LL HAVE HELPED THOSE THREE FORMER EMPLOYEES. THEY'RE NO LONGER "FORCED" TO WORK FOR THE BIG MEAN FRANCHISEE! HUZZAH! HOORAY FOR US! WE ARE BENEVOLENT!

TO THOSE WHO CLAIM HIKING THE MINIMUM WAGE WOULDN'T AFFECT PRICES THAT MUCH BECAUSE SOME OF THE COST OF THAT BURGER IS RAW MEAT AND BREAD AND WHAT-NOT.. WHERE DO YOU THINK THAT MEAT COMES FROM? WHO SLAUGHTERS THE COW? WHO PROCESSES AND PACKS THAT INTO HAMBURGER? WHO LOADS IT ON A TRUCK? WHO CLEANS UP THE MESS LEFT BEHIND?

why is it gone, more than it helps the minimum wage workers who can now better do all those things you just said: "Supporting a family, trying to hang on to his house, trying to have a nice vacation some day, hoping to retire some day."
fluffer.

you sound like a retard and i hope your restaurant fails

thanks for the all-caps gibberish though, you dumb fluff

LOL BLID.

YOU DO REALIZE DON'T YOU THAT EVERYONE HERE RECOGNIZES THAT ALL YOU DO IS SLING INSULTS EVERY TIME YOU'VE LOST AN ARGUMENT.

IT WOULDN'T BE JUST MY HYPOTHETICAL RESTAURANT FAILING. IT WOULD BE THE VAST MAJORITY. IF MINIMUM WAGE IS DOUBLED, THESE PLACES HAVE TWO CHOICES: RAISE PRICES OR GO OUT OF BUSINESS. KNOW WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE $15/HR EMPLOYEES WHEN THEIR BOSS IS FORCED OUT OF BUSINESS?

ANYWAY, ENJOY YOUR EVENING. MAYBE YOU CAN GO YELL AT A KID SELLING LEMONADE FOR PRICE GOUGING OR SOMETHING TO RELEASE A TINY BIT OF THAT VAT OF BOILING RAGE YOU CARRY AROUND. MIGHT HELP YOU SLEEP BETTER.

G'NITE! SLEEP TITE! DON'T LET THE CAPITALISTS BITE!

you do recognize that you wrote a bunch of bulfluff in all-caps, including such nonsense as "WE BUSINESS OWNERS ARE LAZY AND DON'T LIKE TO TYPE ZEROES" and apparently expect us to keep reading

i don't give a fluff about some dumbass restaurant when the entire economy relies on the exploitation of the third world

Ok, fine blid. If you read far enough to see the part about the zeroes, then you also saw that more than half of restaurants make less than $50,000 per year.

I would have though that even you could figure out where I was going with that. I guess I overestimated you. I'll go ahead and simplify it for you.. and even do it without caps. Man am I ever feeling magnanimous this evening.

Increasing the hourly wage of employees by $7/hr in a business with 4 employees which is open 16 hours a day costs around $185,000 per year after employer tax contributions. $185,000 is more than $50,000. Over three times more. The inevitable result is either increased prices, or far fewer businesses open. Which means far fewer jobs available.

Now I'm really off to bed. Good night, dear friend!

*CHIRRRRRUP CHIRRRRRUP*

SWEET DREAMS DEAR BROTHER!
HA!

The subprime mortgage crisis would beg to differ. The free market really worked out well there..

and corporate america is not all of america. small business america would die overnight. and the "6.7%" unemployment would skyrocket.

I stopped reading after the first 50 posts. In general, I disagreed with everyone.

Is it just me, or is everyone overreacting a little? One side says double the minimum wage. Another says abolish it. And a good half are saying fluff poor people, make em dance. dance monkeys dance.

Is the sky really falling? In my part of Canada, BC, minimum wage is $10/hour. I don't now about mot of the states but I know in BC vs WA, or Vancouver vs Seattle, $10USD in the USA goes a lot further then $10 CAD in Canada. But for most demographics, including that 29 year old average age demo $1600/mo brings home around $1300/mo post tax. The only demo I can imagine that not being a survivable wage is single mothers. If that is the real issue, then just hand out some child care vouchers and birth control pills. Why fix a lightbulb with a sledgehammer?

SAM, you'd have more accurate numbers by changing 7 to 6 (really 5.68) although the point still stands. I tend to know that state fairly well for at least regular hourly laws, although I do know laws for tipped employees can be different in some places :)

For 1600/mo most places would only let you rent up to ~535/mo, which can be rather difficult to find in the Seattle area. Here in Colo Springs making the minimum wage at $7.78 the only thing affordable with the 1/3 rule is a studio apartment, and even those can be damn hard to find. Although I do find a McDonald's burger in Washington (9.32 min wage) costs the same as it does in Arkansas (7.25 min wage).

Actually, the people that are barely getting by that depend on govt aid, this would devastate them, as they would be bumped into the next tax bracket and no longer qualify for medicaid, as they would earn too much so they would actually have to buy insurance and not qualify for tax credits (oh, this is about more revenue for the govt....who would have though?)


furthermore, to touch on the manufacturing jobs going overseas...

why was that?

oh yea, minimum wage increased and corporate taxes skyrocketed and it was no longer beneficial to them to do business here

I'm pretty sure Australia the country I live has no problem paying a minimum wage over $15 an hour.

paying workers far more than they are worth is what lead to the downfall of the US automotive industry. i think it is a good idea to apply that premise to every other industry in america and kill them too.

So much misinformation in this thread, wow.

http://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/eligibility

Read that to determine how benefits for food stamps are calculated. HINT: it is indexed against income. I.e. - if you make more, the subsidy goes down.

Most gov't programs work that way. So while someone may be getting food stamps today AND getting food stamps tomorrow, they would NOT be getting "the same welfare" as they did before after income rises.

Yes, MY taxes and YOUR taxes are subsidizing corporate exploitation of labor.

People crying supply/demand are apparently willfully ignorant of concepts of negotiating power. Go study game theory.

People crying about inflation are overstating the problem. There would be SOME inflation in SOME sectors. Yes, corporate profits would get squeezed. A business won't simply raise their prices beyond what customers will pay -- that is where supply and demand comes in.

Here is the historicals on the REAL minimum wage, adjusted for inflation, over time:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42973.pdf

archaic: the minimum wage in 1994 (you said 20 years) was (statutory) 4.25 which translated to ~7.25 in 2013 REAL dollars. That is what the minimum wage is (statutory) today. So, if we assume that purchasing power today is the same as what it was then, we'd be fine. The problem is that the cost of low-income housing as a % of income has risen dramatically in 20 years. For example:

http://eyeonhousing.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/presentation23.jpg

That shows the rise of rent in real % as well as its rise as a component of core CPI.

And we haven't even touched on other necessities that are out-pacing inflation (medical, higher education)...


***EDIT*** - BTW, I am not in favor of $15 / hr. I think $10-11 makes more sense. $15 is just a negotiating tactic. ;)

Reference: http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm

Do you really argue that food prices in restaurants are varying as dramatically as the minimum wage for servers in these different states?

Federal Minimum Cash Wage: $2.13
Highest, Wash/Oregon: over $9.00
Lowest: Most of the SE and Midwest: $2.13 (federal minimum)

By your argument that all costs just get passed on, food would be MUCH more expensive up there in the Pacific NW than in the SE. I've eaten out plenty of times in both, and I don't see it.

Wow, condescending, ignorant and elitist all in one post. Nice.

Reported profits is an absolutely stupid way to evaluate a small business. Most small business owners will do everything possible to keep reported profits down for tax purposes.

Example: An franchise owner loans his business $200k with a 25% rate. The owner also calls himself an "owner/manager" (regardless of if he ever shows up for work) and takes a salary as well. Payments to the owner for his salary, benefits, and the interest on the loan all count AGAINST the "reported" profits of the business. A smart small business owner will extract the maximum possible from their business to keep taxes down. There are plenty of tax-free or tax-deferred strategies to employ to keep it off personal taxes as well.

BTW, politicians do this as well. They "loan" their campaign money at a high interest rate instead of "spending" their own money. By doing it as a loan, they can make it all back over time (with interest). If they do lose, the campaign can be declared insolvent (in which case it might become a non-recoverable donation). But if they win, they can make a ton as the donations of other supporters are used by the campaign to pay back the loan and interest.

Have you ever thought about the fact that some small businesses will have to cut down on the number of employees if wages go up? How does it help the people who might lose their job altogether?

Obama care was going to make healthcare cheaper and allow everyone to be covered right? Yeah I trust politicians...

I'm all for helping people make a better living, if it actually helps people.

Oh and you could keep your same doctor, and same plan if you like it right? HA

The free market was not to blame for that bullfluff you retarded asshat. Do your research, the government was forcing and encouraging these banks to make loans to these knuckleheads whom couldn't afford them.

Hint - look at your reference for the poverty level calculations. They can deduct a bunch of crap from their income to arrive at a level that would still leave them with $15/hr plus ALL current welfare entitlements.

A common price point alone is not evidence of a monopoly or price fixing. Large profits is actually evidence of a non-competitive environment either through monopoly power, barriers to entry, or lack of supply. Does classical economics not say that in a perfectly competitive environment competitors will undercut each other in order to steal business from competitors which should drive prices down to the point where profits would be minimal? :)

Correction to the above: it doesn't matter if a business is publically traded or not. The objective of a business is to maximize profits by *any* means. I didn't add moral/legal. Being immoral/bad publicity is generally avoided because that would have a negative impact on profits as would breaking many types of laws.

The arguments for/against minimum wage haven't changed since abolition..

I will say this though: no one forces costco to pay more than minimum wage and yet they seem to be doing quite well doing it.

Saying that someone's wage shouldn't go up because it would make it the same/higher than yours is a very bizarre argument.

this. Community Reinvestment Act of 1995 signed by Bill Clinton

Also, prior to mr president being mr president, he was an active lobbyist that pressured bankers and state legislators into passing laws and giving out sub prime loans to low income residents that had no means to pay them back.

this was not a reflection on how free market works, it was a disgusting perversion of the "american dream" that everybody DESERVES to achieve said dream. nobody DESERVES to achieve anything, the beauty of this country is that any child, black white, rich, poor, can grow up and, with the right work ethic and right mentality and drive, they can be whatever they want to be. 1 generation can work out of the poverty level of society if they chose. I know this first hand, because I am doing it myself. with 0 handouts.

So you went to high school in a fluff poor school, with 0 help at home the entire way up, had a job at 16 to buy your own food, went to community college of course out of state, and without any grants, scholarships, moved onto a 4 year program at a real school, with all the money you somehow saved while feeding yourself and housing yourself, finished that degree without any grants/scholarships or aids again while providing your own home food transportation and books. And got a solid job?

Congrats mdevol you are a true role model for society.

Small business would receive a *huge boost* over night! Because the *HALF* of america that works at mostly minimum wage low end jobs for corporate america would all suddenly have nearly twice as much money to spend!



Incidentally it would also lower the tax burden.

Watch this, please: https://www.youtube.com/...mbedded&v=vAcaeLmybCY

Why not? Do you not believe that somebody working 40 hours per week, at *any* job, should be able to afford to live without getting welfare or food stamps or other government assistance?

They may initially, but the surge in demand created by lots of the lower third of america that makes less than that would be huge for their business; they would likely be able to hire *more* people after said minimum wage increases.


I also give you this: http://www.thestranger.com/...cher/Content?oid=19138455

Retarded asshat? Very mature.

What martian said!

Raise the minimum wage :)

Also, Martian is a smart man.

Maybe not, but it is clearly accurate.

This thread underscores how our political outlook has shifted from guaranteeing fair and equitable access to the "American Dream" of improving one's condition to a sense of entitlement, that it is the government's responsibility to improve our condition at least to a point, thereby guaranteeing a standard as the minimum acceptable quality of life.

Does the government have the responsibility to ensure nobody fails?

The responsibility of a government is the well being of it's citizens.
And before you say that statement advocates communism let me expand:
Depending on your beliefs this can mean that this is best done by minimalist actions or a lot of actions on any combination of the economic, social, religious, and military areas. Also how "well being" is measured weather that be monitary or spiritual. Any government of any stripe that systematically and deliberately acts to diminish the well being of it's citizenry is a bad government and bad government ->collapse although this can take time.

Also there is the expression that people get the government they deserve...


As for the whole subprime thing: The fact that the government heavily influences lending rates automatically means that the monitary system is not "free market". The idea that one should use debt (via housing and mortgages) as a means to boost the economy was a horrible one introduced by various right and left wing governments across the developed world. Low interest rates, encouraging debt etc.. this only has one possible outcome in the long run. We have seen this in various forms throughout the 20th century as well: the great depression (buying stocks on margin) and the late 1980s (junk bonds) are the two most obvious examples...

" that it is the government's responsibility to improve our condition at least to a point, thereby guaranteeing a standard as the minimum acceptable quality of life."
That shift happened in the late 19th century although there have been arguments about what is "minimum acceptable" ever since. Can we move on?