3 hits in 24 hours from this guy (AND he's trying to outrun retals):

Dec 18/12 1:38:05 AM PS Only the Sexy People (#5) (LaF) Tisyas sexy TAN lines (#609) (Paradigm) 274 A (+387 A)
Dec 18/12 1:30:47 AM PS Only the Sexy People (#5) (LaF) nice TAN Tish (#305) (Paradigm) 335 A (+438 A)
Dec 17/12 1:22:36 AM PS Only the Sexy People (#5) (LaF) SHARING IS CARING (#544) (Paradigm) 1238 A (+492 A)

4 hits from this guy, one of which is a RoR:

Dec 18/12 5:55:27 AM PS MethyleneDioxyMethylAmphetamine (#222) (LaF) Pickles and Onions (#421) (Paradigm) 694 A (+442 A)
Dec 15/12 4:48:22 PM PS MethyleneDioxyMethylAmphetamine (#222) (LaF) TABZ TAN and TISYA 3way lovefest (#243) (Paradigm) 809 A (+446 A)
Dec 13/12 9:10:55 AM PS MethyleneDioxyMethylAmphetamine (#222) (LaF) Pickles and Onions (#421) (Paradigm) 349 A (+202 A)
Dec 12/12 2:10:24 AM PS MethyleneDioxyMethylAmphetamine (#222) (LaF) nice TAN Tish (#305) (Paradigm) 428 A (+193 A)

3 hits from this guy:

2012-12-17 22:41:58 PS Higgs Boson (#65) LaF Ultra loves Tis and Tan (#290) Paradigm 670A (1213A)
Dec 15/12 7:57:29 PM PS Higgs Boson (#65) (LaF) nice TAN Tish (#305) (Paradigm) 717 A (+566 A)
Dec 13/12 11:05:38 PM SS Higgs Boson (#65) (LaF) Princess and Camel to The Rescue (#43) (Paradigm) 209 A (+188 A)

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Not whining. Not complaining. Just thought you should know. Because this always ends well when you hit us like this.

Technically of the last three, one is actually a retal by your country on the LaF country. He did hit someone else afterward though... so I see your point. But for the sake of those more lazy you should probably update your post ;)

Oops. Updated. Thanks. ;)

Are you complaining that 222 is hitting you or that he RoR? You encouraged people to hit you and now they are.... retal them.

65 I dont see a RoR but the news is messed and he isnt exactly tough to retal.. so again.. you are getting what you said you wanted and believed in imo with all of those hits.

Ah you're correct locket, #65 didn't RoR. Updating the post.

And I'm not complaining, I'm pointing out.

Check the news and all the hits on PDM coming in from LaF. If you don't find it unsettling, then you're completely oblivious and LaF's history with PDM has meant nothing to you, or you've completely forgotten.

Once again, I'm not complaining. But don't be surprised when the fluff hits the fan and things spiral out of control - which they will.

I know our past and 222+65 are not like it. I think you guys can benefit from those hits tbh so do so and enjoy it? ;)

Look at the sordid news between us, and you tell me if you think we're enjoying it: http://www.eestats.com/...side%5B%5D=LaF&page=1

Edit: Deleted fluffload of news, replaced with easy-on-the-eyes link.

Personally I'd prefer amicable land trade with you guys, but I guess it could get out of hand very quickly. Especially with our history and someone trying to hit you and get out of range.

Fortunately for me I'm not an FA or anything else, so I only have to deal with my own country possibly getting caught in the crossfire (I did hit you guys once before reading this. Retalling me should be easy and mutually beneficial though).

I hope things doesn't get out of hand.

You guys have at least 3 or 4 members trying to outrun retals.

LaF is quickly throwing over a year of amicability and peace out the window.

that's why i hate retal policies. 1 hit = kill. :P

Laf has 3 or so of those people each set :P The rest of us are friendly though!

Why is outrunning retals deemed to be so bad? Surely the idea is to hit a player, and then make a country that he cannot hit back. Thus gaining land? The idea of hitting someone, and staying stationary so they can hit you back seems silly.

This has nothing to do with anything really only my 5th set :D, just wanted clarification. I am an all x, because it honestly looks like people are trying to outlaw any grabbing thats no A) farming noobs B) landtrading illegal.

It inherently makes people mad if they cant retal. I think it is fine to a point but the number of hits obviously should be adjusted to the alliance size or it can get pretty bad. Luckily FA work can usually solve it :P

I can't speak for other alliances, but in Paradigm we encourage back-and-forth landgrabbing - we invite hits on us and we ask that those we hit accommodate us. Our retal policy, unlike some other alliances', is meant to ENCOURAGE landgrabbing and make it mutually beneficial for both attacker and defender. In other words, we landgrab for mutual benefit rather than as a punitive measure, which is why we enforce our retal policy both ways (which is why it's perplexing when other alliances try to dogmatically enforce their own inferior policies).

When countries begin to abuse this system, it's irritating - can you find any PDM country that's a 7m break and running away from retals? No, because our members are reminded that if they attack, they had better be prepared to get retalled. Once in awhile (I think there was one last set), you'll get a guy who buys up and tries to escape, but we chastise them insite and discourage it - and offer reps to the other alliance (can't remember who this happened to - RD I think?).

Landgrabbing *shouldn't* lead to wars (anymore, at least), but when you have an alliance behaving the way LaF is, it unfortunately does and has, multiple times. In fact, this very same behavior is what led us into war in the first place, with the subsequent 1 year long pact designed so this WOULDN'T happen again. I'm sure we can resolve all this by talking to the FAs at LaF - H4 is always a pleasure to speak to - but the fact that everyone is so oblivious and don't see the signs is what is frustrating.

We'll see what happens.

To the sportsmen hitting in good faith, thanks.

Get A heavy jetter/low NW loaded with tons of military strategy and with 3 good offensive allies to retal Hit/hit on those Lafers.

If you do that you probably die buy Sof hand - but what the hell ? :)

Uhh the 1 year pact was signed during the server war.. not from grabs if I remember right. I could be very wrong with that though since my memory is so lacking at times for things I dont care about :P

Laf also tells its people they better be prepared to be retalled, but if they can run a good enough country to avoid it then why should they not do so. The other reason you dont see lots of clans(pdm is one) doing that kind of strategy is the players lack the skills with that strat to do so. Most people who would try it including Laf players would not succeed in outrunning the retals.

Just retal them and I suspect theyd stop because they will never benefit if they try to outrun and fail.

Oh and I will ask this then.. if landgrabbing should not lead to wars, then what should.


Disclaimer: Multiple punctuation keys are being dumb.. thus the lack of question marks and such

If they get retalled it is their own fault dude ;) No one is going to defend someone who tried to outrun and got hit by an all jetter.

Can't we all get along?

It was directly related to the on-again off-again wars LaF and PDM were engaging in for over a year - and each war we engaged in started the set looking something like this, and involved suiciders, retal policy disputes or outright war.

Locket please watch the tank market.

Wait...haven't PDM resorted to using the all-powerful missile-diffuse FS in recent times? I hear it's quite an improvement over the AB FS they used since time immemorial.

lol

/steals PGs popcorn

Oh stfu you stupid troll. That was so 2012. We use the "Spy on Allies" FS now.

I see three bounces there, all by PDM, and all three were on countries that were not even trying to outrun retals.


By the way, #5 did not do three hits in 24 hours. The first hit you posted was more than 24 hours before the next two hits.

And the other two guys you posted haven't even done two hits in any 24 hour period, and aren't trying to outrun retals.

If you're not happy with your own retal policy, maybe you should change it, rather than complaining about having to do retals.

It's attitudes like this that lead people to A) Quit the game, or B) Suicide indefinitely.

Speaking on a personal level, and not as an FA, do you guys not wonder why you attract more suiciders than any other alliance?

I think the premise is really simple: If you can retal successfully, it likely won't happen again. Is that not why people bottomfeed?

Yeah, but then they occasionally get retalled by an untagged while bottomfeeding, so they hit them 10 more times and call it good.

tellarion I personally usually just kill the untagged if it retals :) but, thats just me personally.... some others disagree (I do not speak for my clan in any way on this topic)

*makes more popcorn*

I probably should be part of this discussion somehow but...*sips her hot chocolate*

*borrows some of tisya's popcorn*
nah, just let 'em be ... no need to get involved ;)

Oh you are mistaken, Mr Rockman.

I'm not complaining. LaF are doing the same things now as before we signed the pact. Just wanted to be helpful and point it out.

While I don't like it I can't really blame LaF. The RoR's are kinda a fluff move but their top guys targetting PDM is to be expected. It isn't news that PDM runs landfat countries and LaF likes to use their superior netting ability to push themselves out of reach of retals. There was only 1 hit that the LaF'er tried to outrun after the fact. Most of the hits by their big guys came after they were already high in NW. In turn they yields were crappy in comparison to what we can get on retals.

I wasn't around prior to the wars so I don't know what went on back then. I should have planned for this and ran some big retallers early this reset but didn't think about it. Just have to adjust now and go with it.

I agree with you about the RoRs, and I've said a few times (internally) that LaF should change its policy to a 48 hour window for RoRs, and to give warnings to people who do RoRs.

if you get hit, just retal.

If you can't, it's not your land.

If you look at the news and then look at PDM's country list it is pretty obvious that we won't be able to retal everything that is due. However when our grabbers get their jet counts up we will retal RoR's by what they are due by PDM's policy.

However I will point out that PDM's policy on RoR's is actually less than that LaF's is (according to the wiki) but your guys will still lose out a lot if they keep RoR'ing.

If they RoR they are stupid or made a mistake and will learn from it when you retal them. I think that most of the grabs will be easy retals and a few will be hard. Every PDM player should be able to do the first and the second you just have to stop a couple of times and they'd stop due to the big losses. So basically I agree with you BigBen :P

depends how we define RoR as well.

landgrabs are just about the best reason to war someone. it actually has an in-game element to it, rather than X deciding to declare war on Y cos they have the same membership count and were bored.

as diez said if you can't retal then it's not your land, if you don't like it then make a stand- be it war or giving the opposition a taste of their own medicine by midfeeding and then buying up.

Doesn't work too well when "the opposition" is the second-largest alliance on the server, has the largest alliance as an FDP, has another "war" alliance with almost twice your membership as another FDP, and they're either not pacted with you, or they have break clauses in their uNAPs that go something like "If you breathe too hard, we will FS you" when you read through all the legalese that's covering it.

hey tisya, let's sip hot chocolate together ;)

Maybe you should try having people take their own retals, rather than feeding all your retals to a select few retallers.

Well anyway. I just wanted to point this out. Nip it in the bud before it escalates, as we have a poor history and I'd rather not go back to the pre-pact attitudes. Tisya is already looking around for you guys but I'll pull one of you aside for a friendly chat soon. En taro Adun.

We don't. Those who would rather not retal their own hits post and ask someone else to hit, which is first come first serve, although we encourage only those with similar NWs to claim them. The big retals though are usually claimed by a select few because only a couple guys run with enough jets to be able to break large targets.

you can't ignore my pdm post forever tan

:P
++martian
randomly attention whoring:P

Paradigm needs to do a better job of handling it's business, at the end of the day.

Outrunning retals is very 2003, and rarely succeeds as intended. If someone succeeds in that way against us, it's our own damn fault.

(I'm pretty sure we can retal everything, though....just FYI everybody)

No we can't Wari. There are 3 to 4 LaFers trying to outrun retals. We can't take all the retals. We CAN get in one or two hits on each and get the total land back, but we can't retal ALL the hits individually. Not for another two days at least. ;)

LaF's view on what constitutes an RoR seems to be different from most of the rest of the server's.

LaF's view is 24 hours grace period after doing a retal. While I think it should be changed to 48 hours, I wasn't aware that most of the server was different from that.

I've had the impression that if another LaF country hits the retalling country and doesn't send a retal message (even within 24h), LaF doesn't consider it a RoR. Is that wrong?