What definds a jetter? is it 80%, 75%?

And as a rule, you don't use jetters to grab.
Jetter is a tool for retaliations.

So, if we can't grab with a jetter, I don't think others should be allowed to grab a jetter? If so, I think it's only fair that a jetter is allowd to grab.

looking for everyone's views here.

IMP doesn't recognize jetters

pan and focus use 80%

You grab other countries, regardless of strat.

If you want to run a jetter as a retaller, then prepare to have it grabbed. I'm not talking farmed, but fair landgrabs are a fact you're going to have to deal with, if people are going to get spy ops on you.

But, you shouldn't be too upset about your jetter bein' grabbed, because the whole point of that country, is that you'll be able to make the retal, and hopefully get some or all of your land back. If you can't, then you need a better jetter. ;)

NBK's doesn't recognise jetters, but I am not a fan of anyone using them for stuff other then retals. Will not authorise multiple retals on a jetter or accept it, but probably will give a jetter a hard time if it happens repeatedly.

Exactly K4F!

It's pretty stupid that the clans that are so against self-farming and encourage being able to defend your land are the ones that don't recognize jetters.. tad hypocritical.

how is it hypocritical? it's a lousy strat for war clans to be heavy on jets and not have anything else. IMP doesn't recognize jetters first of all. And any definition you come up with, we wouldn't be doing "jetters" anyway.

"jetters" "topfeeding" and all variations of both of them should be included in the swear-filter on FFAT.

can they just come up as fluff i support that

I tell people regularly to avoid running all jetters. And before the war I don't think we had any really.

Most of the jetters we have now (outta the 2 or 3 we do have) Were made in the first place to do retals on some really big countries after we finished the war.

Because you support the idea that everyone should have military to defend their land, yet you're ok with using jetters and the extensive offense bonuses there are in place to be able to break anyone no matter how well defended..

You grab with a jetter on a country with a little more land then you, or even double the land you have you're still gonna be screwed hard on the retal from a 2k acre jetter ;)

If you had read what I said, I said I am not a fan of them. I never said I was ok with it.

I said NBK does not recognise them, as many of the clans do not.

No you won't. The amount of land the grabbing country has does not effect the returns at all. It is only the amount of land of the country being grabbed and the nw ratio (as well as tyr/strat bonuses).

Confirmed

Who cares about a jetter. If someone pisses you off enough, store turns and take the FS.

As Havoc said, with the PS bonus for attacking, 3 off. slots vs. 2 def. slots and the new bonuses, it makes it very possible for anyone to break anyone else if they're specifically targeting a country.

For this reason, PANLV is defining a jetter as approximately 80% jets (compared to turrets, primarily).

We are fully understandable of the thought that if someone gets really fat they have to defend their land, but if someone needs to run 80% jets or greater in order to break one of our countries (on a landgrab), then obviously we've done what we can to defend our country. This will be handled on a case-by-case scenario, so if we feel we're being targeted by someone sitting at 79% jets, we'll still be fairly unhappy.

As Kyle said though, most war clans aren't going to be running jetters anyway, and most netting clans are probably happy with the idea of protecting their land against people that are using all-jetters.

Hopefully this is a policy everyone can agree on.

Of course, for retaliatory purposes, it's entirely different. If you want to keep a 90% jetter country for retals, I feel that's entirely within your rights, and PANLV sees no problem with jetters as retallers--only as countries that are landgrabbing.

KA says 5% jets is a jetter

-Official KA Response

oh--in addition, it could go the other way. If someone grabbed with an 80% jetter country, but the person didn't do what they needed to do to defend their land (let's say a 30k acre country with only a few hundred thousand turrets), then we'd tell our member too bad, should've defended your land better.

I don't want to seem like we're just trying to be self-serving and we'll only enforce the rules to our benefit.

posted before I saw your response K4F sorry

If someone has a no jetter policy you are welcome to bring it up to our FA, and it will be reviewed. We don't really want our members jetting it out either.

Whats the formula for 'not enough defense'?
Is 1 million turrets enough for 10k acres? What about 2 million turrets for 10k acres?

The argument of 'not enough defense' comes down to whatever alliances are the best at warring get to decide what constitutes a reasonable amount of military, and then everyone else has to follow their rules or fight them.

Not enough defense means, if you have less defense then all the people around you, you are more likely to get hit.
You just have to be a worse target then the people around you.

One month ago when we went to war, each of my countries had 12mil Defense (including tech and gov). Right now probably 3/4 of the server at least, has less then 10mil defense worth.

Id say at this point, if you explored up to 24k acres, 10mil turrets with say 130% weapons tech would be more then enough defense. Sure it can be broken, but not worth it.

If you are sitting on top of 35k self farmed acres however, you should have 15-20mil.

What I find is that most of the 35k ish targets have about half that (before they jumped), in other words less then what my countries had a month ago.

I'm pretty sure if NBK/IMP got land grabbed regularly by an all jetter with signicantly lower land and net worth they would either A kill the countries involved or B get land for land via FA.

Noone in a respectable clan would sit back and allow someone to grab them and take 3k land when they can only retal for 1.2k land.

How ever most guilds do run all jetter land thin countries to retal and then farm off the land gained and sometimes that will yield a larger or on par retal then the original grab.

If it happens once most clans will go through FA and see how it goes. if it happens repeatedly i'm pretty sure most clans will get up in arms.

bottom line is don't LG with all jet countries.. do as many retals as you want. But LG'ing with all jets usually just causes headaches/dead countries.

Incorrect BJ, we will not change our retal rules. Sure a all jetter with 5k land, can hit a 10k land country, get maybe 2k acres 1k ghost. That country will then be 8k land total. Your retal will get 1500-1600 ish, and 800 ghost, so you gain 2400 overall. Not much, but hardly worth crying over.

And even after that, sure a jetter can get one grab in, but after that he is pretty fat, another grab will bring him to the point where you can get PAR land back no problem.

NBK's only issue is, either dropping land then attacking, or attacking then dropping land, or 2 stepping/reverse two stepping. Immediate FA contact required, and our stance is that the target is killeable (Even though we never enforced that yet).

-_-

but yeah, good post

A fair question, but one that I don't want to give a specific answer to, because it's subjective, but basically K4F hit it on the head. If I've built up what any reasonable person would consider a strong defense and someone with 85% jets breaks me, I'll have a problem with it.

I would probably say, if someone with 85% jets only needs to use what an non-jetter of equal NW would need to break me, then I don't feel I have any right to complain. Does that make sense?

if they dropped land, they're absolutely killeable. The point of the grab was just to hurt others and not help yourself.

What if I am 90% jets, and make the grab, and then buy a few million turrets so that I'm now have an equal number of jets and turrets. Was my grab legit?

Let's say they are 3k acres and hit your 14k acre country.. yeah they get like 3k or what ever you retal for 1200 on their 6k country (which I don't think you would get) now they farm it down to 3k and hit a different country... reemeber im not talking about one isolated incident here k4f

Yes Rockman your grab would be legit.

And BJ, if my 12k acre country got broke by a 3k one, I had it coming. With 4x his income you should have more defense then he can have offense...

If it was farmed down to 3k before it hit, that is called reverse two stepping, a killeable offense, if it was farmed down after it hit, 2 stepping, killeable too.

What about farmed down, but it was more than 72 hrs ago :-P

happened to me this set and I was told to suck it up :( I personally dont think a country that is being self farmed should be allowed to do LGs at all.

i see war or some fluffed hits on other countries in the tag that had nothing to do with what was done :)

.

As a self-farmer, I abide by this rule =]

Rockman: I would think so.

My only reluctance in setting hard rules about this with either my own alliance or here on the board is that once you set a line, you leave an area for people to try to exploit it. If we say 80%, no exceptions, then someone will try to make sure they're at 78% instead of 80%.

Really, this is one of those things that if someone grabs me once with a country at 80% jets, if I get anything close back in the retal, I'm probably not going to care enough to do something about it. If a tag is targeting us with hits that are designed to screw us over in the long run, we're gonna do something about it. That's really all this is about.

k4f lets say just to be devils advocate.

i have 3k, because i do.. i hit you and break you because i have all jets 3x offensive allies and the daily bonus turn things, dict, maxed tech etc...

i break your 12k country. you retal me for 50% of what i took, i then farm the land off my jetter. 1 week later i hit you again... and do this every week in the set with different countries on different strings etc.

you can't tell me you guys could careless about topfeeding.

BJ u keep doing that and u will end up in a war.

yes we can.
cause we could.

we would simply grab all your other ones ;)

Synoder let me get this right, if i self farm my countries, then you grab me , i'm allowed to retal, but i'm not allowed to go and grab you at some other point in the reset?

If you did some hits a while earlier on yourself, fair enough no one really cares, but if you farmed your country to the ground, waited a few days and then started hitting people with it, I would have an issue. Might not kill it, but Im sure the country that was farming him would be pretty fat.

I'm not really sure what a guild is... mostly because I go out in the daylight, but I digress.

In those cases I think NBK or IMP would handle things via FA contact, then war if necessary. Although the "all jetter" portion would be irrelevant. They don't use it, they don't observe it. Pretty easy to understand.

yeah pans good for doing that

while we're on the topic of farming and 2 stepping and topfeeds etc

223 Reppowarriors 196 10,618 acres $29,376,953 F 2,767 0 FoCuS
1520 Atlantis 3 4958 10,624 acres $897,938 RG 85 0 Atlantis


which country would you rather hit when you are at 1m nw? the 30 mil NW country at 10k acres or the 900k NW one?

in 1a you guys would cry topfeeding if I landgrabbed the 900k one with my 1m nw country, because at 1mil NW i typically have 3-4k acres

you won't be able to hit the 30M one because of humanitarians =P

All the more reason why NW is its own protection :P

And if you're 3-4k acres this late in the set without being a late starter, then I would cry topfeeding.

If you have far less land than an all-explore country, you have no right to complain if people have to hit you more than once to get their land back.

if you are 900k NW u have no right to complain if you have 10k acres and get hit

Good...

I have seen what I wanted to see.