Base attacking military losses for Standard Strikes are 99%

KoHeartsGPA

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Apr 22nd 2024, 1:56:30

Originally posted by Turtle Crawler:

Yeah I dunno sounds like a bad idea because it detracts from gameplay

I thought you left, nobody is forcing you to play in this server, the meta is over in 1a, you go, you go now....

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KoHeartsGPA

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Apr 22nd 2024, 1:57:59

Originally posted by UgolinoII:

Sorry if this is a silly question, but does this mean that if you send 100 jets, then you lose 99 jets.

(Ignoring med tech & govt bonus)

Originally posted by Slagpit:

Yes, you will lose 98% of your sent units in that scenario for SS. PS will have the typical military losses that you are used to.

Originally posted by UgolinoII:

Interesting, so I am thinking this is going to slow down the hardcore farming a bit...

Exactly what I'm thinking, everyone wins with this.

Slagpit

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Apr 22nd 2024, 4:25:56

Some of the reasons for the change:

1) Make offensive allies more important which encourages players to find a tag and allows elite tags to differentiate themselves by managing offensive allies well.
2) Make spy ops more useful along those same lines.
3) Make landgrabbing a meaningful choice in the early game and punish players who grab carelessly.
4) Increase public market demand for jets, medical tech, and weapons tech.
5) Shorten the overall grabbing phase which some players find to be tedious.

If the mechanic doesn't work out well then it will be replaced with something else.

VicRattlehead

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Apr 22nd 2024, 4:34:39

I tbink this is fantastic. More strategic PSing.

Turtle Crawler

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Apr 22nd 2024, 14:43:12

Without turn optimization it's not a competitive server.

Tertius

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Apr 22nd 2024, 14:52:58

But this should require way more optimization? I mean balancing maintenance and jets cost to blindless grabbing, plus having to ensure you have smart and capable offensive allies that you trust not to eat your jets up. It's whole new areas to learn how to optimize, and you can continue to work on new strats based on the changes for turn optimization too (medical and weapons tech starts anyone?).

VicRattlehead

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Apr 22nd 2024, 15:28:07

Originally posted by Turtle Crawler:

Without turn optimization it's not a competitive server.

Yeah, this is a weird comment. Every rules change shifts what it means to optimize your turns. This basically amounts to "without people being competitive it isn't competitive."

NitelL

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Apr 22nd 2024, 16:44:20

The best part in this is after 20 years, we've found a way to create demand for med tech. lol

BlackHole

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Apr 24th 2024, 15:17:19

TC - Are you trying to say that because the server doesn't know what the optimal turn optimization is, it's not competitive?

I think one of the things that hurts the game so much is that it is a 'solved' game. The more we can break that solution, and force people to make decisions on the fly, the better.

Turtle Crawler

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Apr 24th 2024, 15:49:53

Originally posted by BlackHole:

This server rule isn't competitive because it makes SS unviable and in doing so gives a person a ton of turns and nothing useful to do with them. Earth isn't a time based game like utopia, it's turn based, so any good strategy requires maximizing the value of every turn. But as setup the best strategy is the one that has the highest amount of stored turns, rather than the one who does something useful with them.

There basically isn't any innovation or optimization to be done, which is why it isn't competitive. Offensive alliances and tech are just too simple to optimize beyond using them, and are best optimized by having people play feeder countries, which is the exact opposite of what should be encouraged.

Turtle Crawler

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Apr 24th 2024, 16:01:48

Notice how it reduces PS from 5 to 2 as well. It's just a newb friendly casual server as designed.

To make it competitive give 20 PS.

Slagpit

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Apr 29th 2024, 17:43:53

There are a number of things that players can do to mitigate the higher SS cost:

* doing a tech start
* getting offensive allies
* getting medical tech, weapons tech, and mstrat tech
* having your clan get a sufficient number of spy ops
* saving turns
* building cs later than usual
* playing as the right government. dictatorship is the obvious choice to reduce the cost of SS but there are others that are helpful

Your ending networth is entirely up to the choices that you make. I expect elite players to make the right choices to maximize their networth. If anything, I expect this server to be more competitive than Alliance in that highly skilled players are better able to distinguish themselves.

Turtle Crawler

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Apr 29th 2024, 23:52:26

Originally posted by Slagpit:

All players will do every one of those things, so there won't be any variation in gameplay. Everyone whos competive executing the exact same strategy.

Slagpit

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Apr 30th 2024, 0:58:23

Would you be so kind as to post the optimal farmer strat then? Since all players are going to play optimally anyway there's no harm in you posting it, right?

Celphi

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Apr 30th 2024, 6:31:15

Originally posted by NitelL:

The best part in this is after 20 years, we've found a way to create demand for med tech. lol

Ahahahaha!! So true.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Celphi

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Apr 30th 2024, 6:33:39

For my 2 cents., this change seems good to me.

There’s tricks to calculate a bot’s defense just on networth and govt type; thus some players could perform a successful LG without using a turn on spy op. This at least makes the spy op more valuable.

Edited By: Celphi on Apr 30th 2024, 6:39:27

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Turtle Crawler

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Apr 30th 2024, 6:37:10

Originally posted by Slagpit:

Would you be so kind as to post the optimal farmer strat then? Since all players are going to play optimally anyway there's no harm in you posting it, right?

Extra turns you have to cash to get enough money to grab again benefits one strategy: techer. Because it's turns spent earning are far more productive.

To balance tech with other strategies you need to have a tradeoff between income and growth. But in the rules you implement you need that income to grow, so the tradeoff is gone and it becomes the only playable strat.

Celphi

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Apr 30th 2024, 6:44:14

With so many changes I have no idea how anyone could possibly calculate an imbalance of strategies.

It’s almost an entirely new game.

It also seems Slag is making changes to try out & not necessarily make permanent. The point of the discussion on forums is to point out an obvious imbalance which I don’t think there is one.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

VicRattlehead

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Apr 30th 2024, 13:28:26

TC it definitely seems like you are being critical just for the sake of it here. This is an attempt to improve things, it can't solve every issue immediately, and until we actually see how it plays out everything is speculation.

Slagpit

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Apr 30th 2024, 14:13:52

Originally posted by Turtle Crawler:

Originally posted by Slagpit:

Would you be so kind as to post the optimal farmer strat then? Since all players are going to play optimally anyway there's no harm in you posting it, right?

If you have a suggestion to make techer more balanced I will consider it. The server isn't live yet so it's not too late to make changes. Perhaps it will help to know that the npc countries on this server will not infinitely buy tech like they do on the Alliance server. They only buy tech at prices that they think will benefit them.

Edited By: Slagpit on Apr 30th 2024, 14:17:19
See Original Post

Turtle Crawler

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May 1st 2024, 3:23:29

Originally posted by Slagpit:

Originally posted by Turtle Crawler:

Originally posted by Slagpit:

Would you be so kind as to post the optimal farmer strat then? Since all players are going to play optimally anyway there's no harm in you posting it, right?

Drop the SS change, change the PS count to 10, keep everything else. That adds new interesting things that I can't optimize without actually playing it.

If you want to go really crazy eliminate CC DR and decrease the build cost of large countries significantly, so they more out less cap at the 150k price (or something similar) to enable other strategies. It's much more fun and competitive to grab all set than just part. Add a new tech to decrease build cost.

Give countries 5 spyops per day that don't require turns.

Slagpit

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May 1st 2024, 16:27:51

How would a player's tag be meaningful under those rules?

Turtle Crawler

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May 1st 2024, 16:41:01

Originally posted by Slagpit:

How would a player's tag be meaningful under those rules?

Exact same way it is on what you wrote, those are still meaningful changes that will be utilized, they just don't overwhelm to the exclusion of all other choices.

Maybe you really want to create a ruleset that is all about aiding a singlw country to as high a nw as possible to the exclusion of the results of the other countries in the tag, but I don't suggest that.

Slagpit

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May 1st 2024, 16:53:51

FA packages aren't allowed, warfare and SDI tech are removed, tech leeching is less effective, countries can put goods on the market for up to 60 days, and standing orders were changed to make low price market transfers more difficult. The server isn't designed for players to aid a country to as high of a NW as possible, but of course players are permitted to attempt this if they like.

Leto

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May 26th 2024, 21:46:01

Is medical tech going to help to reduce your attacking losses on this server ?

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DruncK

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May 30th 2024, 4:14:52

Originally posted by Leto:

Is medical tech going to help to reduce your attacking losses on this server ?

Yes

You should not lose 98% on a bounce, just my .02

Requiem

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May 30th 2024, 14:43:17

I think the losses should be lowered a bit. Something closer to 50% is better, as it gives you a few more options on how to spend your turns.

98% is too high and will lead to a stockpile of turns that you will end up exploring or something else not super useful or fun (if you're almost any strat besides teacher). Or you could increase the PS # to offset as well. 5PS and leaving at 98% would be fine, too, IMO.

Ideally, for QOL and gameplay purposes, you should be able to attack with 1/4 of your daily turns. Let's round down and say there are 7ish attacks a day. At 98% losses, not accounting for tech, etc, I don't think many people will be doing that.

That is my gut feeling reading this at least.

Tertius

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May 30th 2024, 15:53:46

I crunched a few numbers and it seems like the cost of growing is only marginally impacted (e.g. it's still worth it to get large land totals). It is left as an exercise for the reader, but that's based on:

the medical tech helping with attacks;
the focus on offensive allies who don't lose 98% (and get the benefit of medical tech);
these bots don't have def allies;
and that build cost (sans bonus) is still the major impactor of getting to high land.

Honestly, if anything, medical tech could be reduced in its benefits (but mostly because I was hoping to farm a lot less bots on this server). But that's probably a nice way to boost techers to have another category of tech that most strats will want.

Requiem

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May 30th 2024, 16:02:11

Oh, they won't ally with eachother? I guess I missed that point somewhere.

About the O allies... Will a PS still take away their jets from the alliance? If so, that point is kind of moot, as everyone should be PSing each day.

EDIT: I'm okay with trying out 98%. I just had an initial gut reaction that wasn't great about it.

Edited By: Requiem on May 30th 2024, 16:04:18

Tertius

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May 30th 2024, 16:16:36

The thing with only 2 PS and unlimited SS is that most players will likely have enough jets home at all times to aid their allies (e.g. if you have enough to grab once successfully beyond your own PS, then you have enough to be able to provide a good bonus; if you make that last SS and lose most of your standing jets... well then that would probably not be the most efficient use of those jets for your team as a whole, and hence fitting for a cooperation server). If it were 5 PS, then like in 1a, it would be more typical to send out all of their standing jets.

Requiem

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May 30th 2024, 16:24:37

I see your point about having enough jets home to aid allies and the balance this brings to the server. However, I still have concerns about the high loss percentage/low PS number.

My main worry is that it could limit the utility of your unused turns.

If no one else shares my concern, let's revisit this at the end of the first set.

Slagpit

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May 30th 2024, 16:45:34

Originally posted by Requiem:

The round starts in about a day so it would be too late to make such a big change. Players might have already spent significant time planning strategies around the 98% military loss mechanic. With that said, I'm very open to changing how it works in future rounds.

Regarding bots not getting allies, internally this server is classified as a team server. Bots cannot tag up and therefore they cannot get ingame allies. I do think that for a server like this getting rid of bot def allies makes playing less tedious.

Slagpit

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May 30th 2024, 16:46:09

Originally posted by Tertius:

I'm interesting in making bot farming less tedious. If you have any suggestions please post them here: https://www.earthempires.com/...ements-52811?t=1717087338

Requiem

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May 30th 2024, 16:52:54

Yeah, it is a good thing the bots do not ally up.

All G, I'll give my opinion after the round.

Turtle Crawler

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May 30th 2024, 18:43:04

It's a humanitarians change that allows more jets at home.

Turtle Crawler

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May 30th 2024, 18:44:00

And yes, loses from SS will have to be significant reduced for the server to be competitive.

Slagpit

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May 30th 2024, 18:45:54

Originally posted by Turtle Crawler:

It's a humanitarians change that allows more jets at home.

I'm not sure what you mean by this comment? The Cooperation server has no effective humanitarians range.

Requiem

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May 30th 2024, 18:53:11

I think he means you can hit smaller bots with fewer jets. He agrees with Tert, just for different reasons :p

Turtle Crawler

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May 30th 2024, 19:08:06

Originally posted by Slagpit:

Originally posted by Turtle Crawler:

It's a humanitarians change that allows more jets at home.

I'm not sure what you mean by this comment? The Cooperation server has no effective humanitarians range.

In alliance people had to limit their jets on hand (and run zero def/zero spies and limit their tech) in order to hit targets. In coop you've removed hummies so now we're able to buy as many jets as we like. It's this change that means offensive allies can be used well, not the limited number of PS.

Requiem

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May 30th 2024, 19:10:08

That isn't entirely the case when you consider how NW affects your returns.

I do think we need more PSs and lower the losses. I want to be able to attack with around 25% of my daily turns, leaving the rest to build and decide what to use them on. I feel this gives more room to differentiate players.

Edited By: Requiem on May 30th 2024, 19:13:59

Turtle Crawler

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May 30th 2024, 19:16:37

I'm not sure why it was lowered from 5 to 2, 5 is a better competitive gameplay, especially early.

Slagpit

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May 30th 2024, 19:17:11

Thanks for clarifying.

TCO_NBK

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May 31st 2024, 18:58:38

It doesn't hurt to try. Let's be honest, countries with 200k-400k land was never the intent of this game in the first place....

Requiem

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May 31st 2024, 20:52:49

My concern is not because of the amount of land that can be achieved. It is about the amount of fun I have playing my turns. If I have a ton of turns with nothing better to do than explore or something silly, then that is not compelling gameplay.

But yes, it does not hurt to try.

I will revisit this end of the set.

Turtle Crawler

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May 31st 2024, 21:31:27

Originally posted by Requiem:

I tried explaining that earlier and they didn't go for it.

KoHeartsGPA

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Jun 1st 2024, 1:25:46

Originally posted by Turtle Crawler:

Originally posted by Requiem:

I tried explaining that earlier and they didn't go for it.

Two PS is ......not enough