Well RD, you succesfully killed my half assed netting country for retaling a crosstag retal. Good luck to you next set, you will need it.

Looking forward to it H.

So that will be the end of Lords, next set. Welcome :)

dont count your chickens before they hatch ronnie ;)

"I support the notion that everything is 5v5, both retals and killings, but again, what we have fought wars over are cross-tag retalling as it is a bigger concern, at least for us, as a defining factor in tag interaction."

a bigger concern, machwell, or is it just that we needed the cross tag killing to fend off the cross tag retalling?

it was never any concern because we needed it so badly to win. This is what disheartened me so much after we won the fight, after we beat them. We stopped something small and ignored the far larger issue at hand, while adopting it.

now everybody is still allowed to cross tag kill, the far worse offence, death over a silly retal, come on..

(i think archaic might actually want to punch me in the face if he reads this :P)

(and crimson, we'll call this ninety degrees, half way there :P)

glad i came back in time for this =D

We did not perform cross-tag kills over a measly cross-tag retal Braden, we banded together and killed tags that performed random kill runs as they please because they were 3 MKR tags and 3 Beer tags who thought they could do what they want. Cross-tag retals caused the conflict, but what really set it off was when they killed Nitell and me without any reason.

I never said that I agreed with cross-tag killing, I'm completely for that everything should be limited to tag on this server. If tags wanna have DNHs with eachother, fine, but that's the only pacts there should be.

What I did say is that at the start of the server we fought wars over cross-tag retalling as it was perceived as a bigger issue. I still think it is. If I were to choose between "banning" cross-tag retals or cross-tag killing, I'd still ban retals, as they are such a defining factor in the tag interaction on this server. Again: the analogy that you call in allies for war in the alliance server, but having allies do your retals is unheard of. In every day play, at least for the tags that want to net, it's much more important knowing what you can grab "safely". You shouldn't have to worry about getting killed, cross-tag or not, as long as you play within the norm of grabbing "rules".

That being said, I stress that I'm not for cross-tag killing. I'm completely against it. The point is that most cross-tag kills are _justified_, and by that I mean that the kill is justified, not necessarily that 1, 2 or 3 tags do it. The people getting killed are 5x-tappers, AB/NM/CM retals and RoRs etc, and as a result there's not that much fuss because they "had it coming".

I haven't seen anywhere the case of "Death over a silly retal". What I am concerned with is the fact that RD are doing cross-tag retals. When we retal that, as we don't accept cross-tag retals, we receive AB RoRs and tons of harmful spyops.

We had to a large extent removed cross-tag retalling prior to this set. If you're gonna be part of a group that brings it back, after how vocal you were last set and set before that I'm gonna be sincerely disappointed.

And just to get things straight.

We didn't do cross-tag killing, we did cross-tag war. There's a distinction there.

Don't hit RD countries and its not a concern. Seems simple enough.

Put retal capable countries in each tag and it's not a concern. Seems simple enough as well.

Yep again I agree with Machwell. You really should be capable of putting one retal capable country in a team. Its actually very easy if you know how to play the game.

or you do what MrCrimson said its even easier.

It's still your own perception.
With cross-killing and cross-warring, you break the team-limitations. Simple.

You are against it, but still you justify. How can you justify something which is against the team-setup? Cross-retalling is no difference.

And besides (machwell), why can't countries do missile retals? Missiles are a part of the game, they are not being implemented to just have them in your warehouse and only getting out to look shiny during parades on Labor Day or so.
Most players deliberately attack the weakest players, who don't have a chance to hit back. If they don't want to get a missile-retal, they should get GDI. That is the game-implemented-solution. Not all your own self-written rules.

All those own rules are causing havoc. You DNH half the server, pick on the weakest repetively until they leave. You allow cross-war, but not not allow cross-retal. You only allow retals for 72 hours. WTF is this crap? Where is that written ingame?
If I want to retal, I will retal. After all it's a wargame. It might take me 3 weeks to develop a missile, but a retal will be made.

Get rid of all your stupid rules which made many people leave. Go back to the core of 12 years ago, when there were hardly DNH's or rules. Now this new game inherits your old rules which made an old game die. Bravo.

Come up with a good solution, in either way, and I'll think about it.

I guess I suck at communicating over the interwebz.

I would love for this server to be 5v5 only. What I'm trying to argue against here is both cross-retals and cross-killing. I would prefer if there were nothing "cross-tag", each tag for itself. I'm not trying to argue against this at all.

What you call justification for cross-tag killing, is me saying that we've focused on cross-tag retals. I don't think there should be any cross-tag kills either, but how are you going to enforce a policy of not accepting cross-tag kills without getting help (cross-tag war?) If you don't get help, you'll have one tag which is against it fighting 2-3 tags that are for it. Ok, so maybe multiple tags will fight it, are they then cross-tag warring or is it a bunch of individual tags fighting the same 3 tags? Can they run joint kill runs or not? Agree on which tag takes which tag?

The problem with attempting to fight any cross-tag policy is that you'll be outnumbered by default unless you're gonna cross-tag war.

That's why we had two sides duking it out in the "X-retal vs Anti X-retal" war.

These are the reasons why it happened. I don't condone nor justify x-retals or x-kills, I'm just trying to explain that we focused on x-retals, and that the war got started over the clans doing x-retals also doing x-kills. (So I guess you can say we fought both, a stance on x-retals caused x-kills, which caused x-war)

I feel like I'm going in circles here, I don't understand why it's not apparent that I'm against both.

And Ronnie; obviously you can do missile retals or whatever you want, it's just a matter of if the receiver accepts that, and if it's you or them who have the strength/will to enforce their policy.

This enforcement of policy should obviously be tag vs tag, but when you have 3 tags on one side and 1 on the other it's kinda lopsided, isn't it?

Edit: And please note, I don't say it's against the rules to retal outside of 72 hours, with missiles or whatever, it's a matter of policy.

Seems like a lot of jibberish.
You know where RD stands. Pretty simple.
We don't adjust to the rules of a few people that make it work in their best interest.

I personally hope this server responds next set as we did during the first attempt at this silly X-retal crap.

Crimson, that makes little sense.

You are doing X-retals in the various RD teams and in my humble opinion then YOU are the one that is making up a rule in the best interest of yourselves. And not the other way around...

You've been unable to explain how x-kills are fine and x-retals are not. Neither are in the rules of this server.
We've taken care of the countries that have attempted to hit RD countries multiple times or retalled retals. As I stated before, RD has our set of rules when it comes to our countries and people who hit them. Don't hit them and it's not an issue.
As long as x-kill is acceptable, you certainly can't try to fight x-retal.

Again as previously stated by Mach and others. Xretals is not ok (at least by most) and Xkills is not ok either (again by most people).

The difference is that Xkills policy hasnt been fought about yet.
If you dislike the X-policies then fight against the people who do them instead of bringing back a policy that the entire server had already abandoned. You are bringing us a step backwards rather than a step forwards in my opinion.

As you say it is easy enough to stay away from you and then not get any problems by it, that is indeed my current stance but I think it sad that you bring the server yet again in the wrong direction (in my opinion, you may disregard it if you wish of course) :)

I stopped trying to argue my point when it bacame apparent that RD is full of thick headed, win at any cost, children. Any victories you may achieve in this style RD makes you bigger loosers in my book, and many other peoples.
You may get away with it for now, but you have developed a big red bullseye on your tag.

Cross tag killing in my oppinion is ok, depending on circumstances. Just as on other servers, clans band together to defeat a common foe. But cross retals on land grabs???? wtf is that about. If said tag doesnt have one decent retal capable country, it becomes food... its always been that way.

I didnt even take the tag name into consideration when I farmed it, all i saw were weak countries in need of a few land grabs. I shouldent have to scour the message boards to see what tags are linked with who, in fear of retals out of nowhere.

my basic thought is that if you want to play with more than 5 people on your team, you should go play alliance

just take the basic set of rules from alliance
NO ONE cross tag retals in alliance, but there are lots of joint killruns. That has been a staple of Alliance for the last decade, with a few brief times where people attempted to cross retal and were promptly killed for it :p

i used that same basic definition for what is "acceptable" in alliance when we were dreaming up the team server.... we expected there would be some pushback, and there was, but it was more/less resolved

I would like to see absolutely no teams working together, and everyone playing in their own 5 man group.... but it's a slippery slope of working together. once 2 tags start working together, it takes 2 other tags to work together to kill them, and it snowballs from there.

Yep, and now I find myself agreeing with Pangea too. :)

Well Pang thank You for the insite. that helps alot.
Everybody else Can we play the game as it was intended now.

cheers Pang, just like I say all the time.
All those unwritten rules by players here, justifying their cross-killing and so, doesn't make sense.

Pure 5 vs 5 it should be. We've done that in the past with some groups, in tournament. Was great fun.

And as long as there is cross-killing, I still don't see why cross-retalling is not allowed.

Show me ONE TIME when I ever endorsed cross tag retalling?

One time?

I am the reason MKR quit x-tag retalling. Don't get me wrong, the war was a lot of fun, but cross-tag retalling was a mistake endorsed by former MKR leadership in response to their perceived feeling that the server had been yanked out from under them.

For the record, UnLeashed deserves whatever they get IMHO.

ok, i stand corrected, i apologize.
(then what did we argue over? other than my idiocy :P)

"If you're gonna be part of a group that brings it back, after how vocal you were last set and set before that I'm gonna be sincerely disappointed."

I intend to play with them, yes, netgain or war. that does not mean i agree with everything that might be done :(

add one more to the walking contradiction that is braden king :(
(and if anybody quotes an alanis morissette song i will cross tag retal you, so help me god)

Isn't it ironic?
**runs out of thread**

what was it she said about good advice you just didn't take?

now you'll have to landgrab my country, so somebody else can take the retal. i hope you're happy.

TEE Hee

So MrCrimson, all the RD tags policy is, don't hit us and you have no need to worry, but plz stay out of our biz as farm everyone else?
Good luck with that pal.

1. I'm on a small vacation away from home.
2. Blazed belongs to Blazed.
3. 3 out 15 members of Lords 1, 2, or 3 play in LaE. Of the remaining 12, five of them come from Mars2025, the remaining seven come from global2025 which is a small earth2025 clone once owned by TC. It is through our relations in 2 other games besides Earth Empires that we have people who all wanted to play under the Lords Tag cause we told them how much fun this game is.

The issue with cross-tag retaling. We've only had one incident of that ever in our Teams' history and that was this set involving jiff69's country. As far as cross tag killing, when we signed up for this server we were made aware of a cross tag retaling war that was going to happen involving teams of BEER and MKR vs the anti-cross retaling coalition (don't know if you ever had a real name). Killing with 5 countries when you're spread out over different time zones can be undone with untimely loggin in by your target. Hell it can be undone when you got 20 countries even. So, we knew of the impending war coming so we built two teams for some bit of protection just in case. Our intentions were to enjoy the game but with the addeed extra protection. From the start our policy has been not to cross tag retal, we've upheld that up till the one incident this set where our player had. We have cross tag killed as both a matter of protection and as a deterrent.

jiff69 I don't know where you're getting your information of which country is mine, but I assure you, I only have one country and Blazed is not it. Matter of fact I wasn't around when your country was killed, I'm certain I was someplace in between Tennessee and Iowa while it was going on.

very well put thunder hope vacation is going well :)

I never said that x-retals are bad and x-kills are fine Crimson you moron. I said that we had fought over x-retals, but not over x-kills yet.

What a retard.

And Ronnie,

I'm trying to figure out if I'm discussing with you or if we're agreeing all the way, because I think that this server should be all about 5v5 strictly limited to tags as well, and fluff the pacts.

machwell...you're a tough guy eh...

maybe you should have read my post and who i was talking to before you ran your mouth dumbass

All I know is that I had the pleasure of getting the kill on jiff69.

lol crimson, I saw now that you wrote to ViLSe. I was scrolling bottom up, and I'm a bit mad because the one day I'm away from teh interwebz at our summer house I get killed in a 10 hour KR.

ViLSE and I both agree pretty much though. What I can't see in this thread is where we try to justify cross-killing and try to keep it in the game. We don't want cross-retals, cross-killing or cross-war.

What we're saying is that up until now we've fought against x-retals, not x-killing as of yet.

Ronnie I'm still somewhat confused with your logic here.

You are saying it should be pure 5v5 and all that but yet yet you are the ONLY group of teams that are doing both cross retalling and cross killing.

It makes no sense. If you were against both you should surely have all the RD teams work as separate teams? Otherwise you are being somewhat of a hypocrite...

machwell: I told you in my retal msg I sent you to not hit RD anymore. You didn't listen, so we killed you. It's just unfortunate that you don't accept our X-tag retals.

Noone on this server accepts X-team retals Hellz. We've been through this whole charade before...

Did I step back in time or what is going on in here??

When the Coalition fires back up, be sure to insite me,i am full well ready to fight this crap again..And we should...

ViLSE: I said that both x-retal and x-kill is tampering with the original setup of the game.
As long as everyone is doing x-killing, I really do not see why x-retalling should not be allowed. It's basically the same thing. You step out of your original team, getting backup from another team.

So, why strong agains x-retal while you yourself break every other rule? It's like Al Capone is accusing you of cheating at a cardgame.

Like I said: start going back to basics yourself first, so without all the crosskilling, and I will think about it as well.
Make a move first.

w/o crosskilling: team 1 fs's team a so team a calls its ally team b (all 10 members play together at Alliance) to help them so team 1 calls its ally to help it (and again all 10 players play at same alliance at Alliance).

results: nothing changes but played by rules.

This server was meant to be 5v5 plain and simple.
You can't ally out side of your clan and if you cross retal/kill you are going against the spirit of the intentions of the developers.
We squashed this crap once, i suppose it is time to fight it again..
[edit]

This is from the rules,plz note that abusing the 'Spirit of the rules'
CAN lead to deletion


"Spirit of the rules
Players should strive to play according to the spirit of the rules, especially on servers without clans. These servers are designed for individual play. To make the game fair for all players and accessible to new players, players in the primary, express, and tourney server should not engage in any outside of game organizing which gives them an advantage over what can be accomplished through normal, ingame diplomacy. Warnings will be issued to countries suspected of breaking this rule, and in extreme cases, the offending countries may be deleted. "

Ronnie, just so you know where we're coming from. Neither ViLSE's team nor my team cross-kill, nor have we done it in the past. What we have done is cross-tag war, to fight the policy of x-retals, where basically two sides fought over it.

You could say we fought cross-kills as well, as cross-kills were what triggered the war. (E.g. we retal cross retals as we don't accept that, they kill us for retaling their cross retals, we war them)

Both ViLSE and I are in 5 man tags, not LOT1, 2 etc, and we don't cross-kill.

I'm strongly against both.

snawdog: yea country can't have allies outside its Team but Team can have pacts with other Teams (some sugggested Team-server being pactless playground).

Yea, i know..I was just pointing out the "Spirit" of the rules part here, as Pang has posted here about what the 'Spirit' of the rules were.

yea no crosstag-retalling but warring is grey area.

until its stated at rules that teams can't have pacts wars won't be 5 vs 5.

That is just plain wrong Marshal.
Either you get full benefits of being in a clan or you get none.

Your wrong MrG, clans are 5ppl here... get with the times, this isnt alliance server.

People come here looking to get away from the big clan atmosphere, sure, its not perfect, but xretals cross the line.