RD was able to kill people that walled really fast because we could take down a country in 15 seconds if needed and it didnt matter if they could wall. If the kill time takes 3-5 minutes those people will literally be unkillable.

You fluffting me Xin? You are taking the evidence from a war where you guys couldnt have lost if you picked numbers out of a hat to kill? Try being online for 5 minutes in a war with someone like Sol where 95% of your clan dies and if you dont put in more of an effort it would turn to 100%. Most people can't play for that amount of time in an even war and live and that wont change for most of those people anyways. This is a change that helps those at the top FAR more than those at the bottom.

QZ/Xin: I have a few thoughts here. If you wish to make it so that more people can stonewall and runs take 600 hits+ then you have to weaken stonewalling. Literally being unable to remove someone like Dragon/Maize/Ershow/Makinso/Gains from a war for a limited time or even being able to fully cripple him because he can wall that too, is just wrong. If walling isnt weakened then war is just a joke. You cant kill and you cant even cripple effectively. All you have done is helped those who already wall. Most who died in the 45 second range will also die by 3 minutes. I rarely saw someone login to their country 30 seconds too late. You have boosted the same players who already were tough to kill.

Now all these clowns in Alliance will have to make better excuses and reasons to war when it becomes a pain in the ass.

Thanks qz, I have always said that the decision to go to war should be a very well thought through one, not some bullfluff about, "oh one of your members was badmouthing our clan so "I kill you" bullfluff".

Let's see how this set goes, hopefully half of you quit.

Duna hit the nail on the head. Good luck to all the war chat leaders running chats this reset. :P

I'd be willing to put money on the fact that the changes will be rolled back after this reset.

of course you would endorse the changes, theyre made for people like you who are scrub level warrers.

A 1m country attacking a 12m country can wipe out ~18% of the 12m country's defense in a single hit, as opposed to fall within 4~8% before the change.

Is the 18% damage a bug or intended?

i really hope that it isnt coded so that smaller countries destroy more military while losing less. if so you just seriously ruined the game.

Oh. If 95% of a clan dies, or is unwilling to put in at least "a little" bit of effort, then perhaps it deserved to lose. This game is extremely accessible and doesn't require a top-end PC.



I have seen my fair share of kills where LaF countries logged a minute too late. I have also seen kills where we took so long to kill that the enemy came on to wall.

I have always thought it was ridiculous you can destroy a country in seconds when it took weeks to build. Less deaths is good, and keeps players interested in the game. Even the restart bonuses were primarily to make restarting less of a chore because kills occur just too often, too fast.

Yes, I remain contactable at night. Will wall at 3am over someone that doesn't want to. You do not agree that a more dedicated player should succeed better than a less dedicated player? I don't even spend that much time on this game, I think the forums take up more time than the game itself.

Overall, if 2 clans are equally skilled, then shouldn't the one that is wiling to wall win over the one that isn't willing? Like I said, walling doesn't even take much time. If your members are less dedicated and motivated to even keep their own countries alive, then by all means die and lose.

no, it isn't =/

Hope? You are down to hoping? Too dense to understand the changes and yet you comment? Didn't I destroy you once in Express?

I understand your intention here to make wars longer, but for an active Alliance like SoF I think this really benefits us more as opposed to our enemies. In short, I think smaller Alliances will suffer far more from this than we will.

We have a lot of SoFers who are virtually unkillable from even rushed killruns, I think that number will now be substantially higher.

And for us, 600 attacks to rush a target is not too hard for us to achieve. It is a waste but we are big enough to do it, however a smaller Alliance would not be capable of it.

I hope you realize 600 attacks takes about 1500 turns to perform, Sov. The goal is to make rushes next to impossible. I don't see it a problem if some players become virtually unkillable, just needs a change of tactics to adapt and ruin said countries instead.

Remember that this change also makes FSes weaker, the FSer kills less countries (needs more hits to kill), and the clan being FSed has a better chance of walling.

Also, I don't have an issue with a more active alliances winning a war - that's how wars are supposed to be.

Maybe you don't pay much attention to SoF wars but we can easily achieve a 300+ attack kill in 10-15 seconds, just ask MD. Larger breaks are usually 300+ attacks to kill.

We normally kill 1-3 countries per warchat with 2-3 in our main NA warchat. Usually the last country is a smaller break as breakers have depleted their turns by the end of a warchat. It just now means that we will only be killing 1-2 countries per warchat but our enemy will not be in a much different position.

I'm not doubting your ability to kill countries fast. I'm saying this change is meant to counter the ability to rush kills exactly like you are describing, because all countries deserve to have a few minutes chance to wall.

Ok, Xinhuan, so also add nights wake up to the list of contactable. Some ppl like to sleep. Dedicated is very common word. Some ppl may be dedicated, but not crazy. Well, almost all, who still plays this game is dedicated. But this dedicated ppl still will die, it will just take more hits to kill them, as Sov said.

Sov, 300+ attacks in 10-15 sec = 600+ attacks in 20-30 sec. 20 sec is time wich need active player to login. So, it will be pain in ass to rush someone. Because you will need first to drop his population to like 10K pop and just then rush. And i really recommend to play with numbers. Big republic with res tech will be alot more attacks, may be over 1000 and even over 1500.

And yes, i agree with Sov also. Smaller alliances are now cant kill big countries, because they simply dont have as much turns. That also will enforce coalition wars.

Its so funny qzjul just ignoring my questions:)


-------------------- QUESTION TO QZJUL -------------------
Btw, i just wonder, does this apply to missile attacks? CM rushes is also needs to be 3 min?
Also, does this apply to mix of GS/BR, like 100 GS/100 BR? What will be multiplier? 100 or 200?

The announcements said it affects all specials, and the damages of all special attacks, so it would be 200.


Also, 20 seconds isn't the time an active player needs to login. He first needs to be contacted first (say someone in an IRC channel sees the Kill run, takes 15 seconds to pick up the phone and dial the correct number. Then the phone needs to be picked up. Add another 5-10 seconds. Then a few seconds of conversation. Then the user needs to alt-tab to a browser, and hope that his login process is not interrupted by another incoming phone call.

All that adds up to over a minute on average. You can't wall something in under 20 seconds unless you are already at a computer and didn't need to be contacted to begin with because IRC is beeping at you.

really? this is so that larger countries take more damage when fighting little countries. sounds like it's exactly for lemmings.

iunno. Every buff to the defender hurts smaller alliances in an outsized way. I just don't see how an alliance the size of anyone besides MD/LaF/SoF will be able to get the turns to kill a waller outside of an FS.

Granted, stonewalling IS NERFED with the attack change. Last reset the moment someone came online the kill run was over as all they needed to do was buy a few thousand troops and your attack returns were suddenly 1/5th what they had been previously. Now you can power through it - though at great cost if the attacker is better then the attackee.

all in all these changes look like they were designed to help crappy warring clans and nerf bottom feeding. If that was your goal then you likely succeeded.

Oh, I think 0.7% might be a bit too high though. 0.6% would probably be better.

Testing with Standard Strike and Planned Strike show small countries hitting large countries causes defender loss that is much higher than before these changes. Only a couple of hits were done, highest defender military damage seen so far is 18% while the smaller attacker lost exactly 8%.

Well, dont take it as offend, but Id like to hear answers from qzjul. It says special attacks, but not anything about how it counts. Also, very interesting, what if SS? 100 SS + 100 GS = 200 or 100 multiplier?



You can set alert on PC, Android, iOS. It covers almost all cases. I belive you can buy Android phone for like 50$ or even cheaper. So active player for sure can come online in 20-30 sec. Or well, if he is dedicated enough, he should watch all warchats with browser opened:)

Or perhaps some clans just take a harder war than others? ;)

I agree on slower kills but I just think that walling should be weaker within the time frame that the hit strength is being affected as well to ensure that walling isnt too easy.

not going to give away any secrets but 20 secs is viable to login and buy up. I did so several times 2 sets ago. Just cause you cant do it Xinhuan doesnt mean others cant. Dragon walled probably 10 times within 20 secs these wars.

If this game had 10k players i would agree with these changes so you would not kill 200 countries in a FS but when alliances cant even get 3k turns in a warchat and then have it be 3k turns for a kill is just retarded.

thx qz for ruining the game, you really excel at it.

I believe you missed out on the part where I said:

"You can't wall something in under 20 seconds UNLESS you are already at a computer and didn't need to be contacted to begin with because IRC is beeping at you."

Emphasis added on the word UNLESS. Heck, I've walled in under 10 seconds myself before, 10 seconds before the phone rang. By "contacted", I meant an actual phone call.

Active players dont need phone call. They have their own alerts:)

And well, if you are sitting at comp, you need about 10 sec to wall.

You have a very different definition of "active player" from me then. An active player is one that plays the game daily.

Reading back on all your past posts, it is obvious that your version of active player is like "one that is always connected, have their own alerts, and have their logins all setup", which is a small minority of the player base, so we haven't even been arguing/discussing about the same thing.

Not sure if this was asked before, or mentioned anywhere, but does the change to the special attack losses also affect the minimum civilian losses? Could it go to 0 civs killed per hit? Or are the same minimum losses still in effect?

Hm. Players who login every day isnt the one, who will try to come online fast to not die. They login, play turns and forget about country till tomorrow:) By this defenition almost all players active.

Hrmmm then you are only thinking in one plane... Did you ever think about how long it takes to organize a kill run or how many countries needed to kill said country? What about money and units lost? Probably not from that statement. 1000+ turns without stocking turns means 15-20 countries. I think it's perfectly fine to die in seconds from 15-20 countries hitting 1 single country in co-ordination losing billions of cash. Perfectly acceptable.

Now with the said change all it will mean is that it will take more countries, double that... say around 30-40 countries just to kill 1. That also means double the money lost and unit lose.

This will mean smaller alliances say 25-40 region have 0 chance at killing a single country and probably 0 chance at maiming a country lol... For them to do it, it would mean all members must be online for that single chat. Not going to happen.

Looks like the game is changing to a more netting type game, where Wars will be really thought out properly and more alliances involved.

Same minimum losses are still in effect. It should *not* go to 0 civs killed per hit (for gs/br/chem).

And fyi I am/have been reading the comments. I'm not responding just quite yet to avoid influencing things.

We will also be getting feed back from tags that war this set and (at the time of this post) approached a couple of tags already on the assumption that they are *probably* warring this set:P

^^^ Looks like the game is changing to a more netting type game, where Wars will be really thought out properly and more alliances involved.

oh not just kill! kill ! kill you mean some planning and skill is coming back ... nice

Not really, the largest Alliances are all warring Alliances who will thrive with these changes. It is the smaller Alliances who will suffer.

You make it sound like I haven't run a clan before. I've held War Head in LaF for a year, run war chats in the past, led LaF at the helm another year, coded war chat bots, scripted lots of minor things, and more. We have had warchats that are so large it required 2 or 3 separate warchat rooms to run efficiently without clogging chat (a breaker room, and a finisher room).

Of course I know how much turns is needed for a country to die, I even have a script that estimates this.

I actually was typing a response to this, when i went to look at the code to check, and must have forgotten...

Yes it applies to a mix of GS/BR and CM's too, it counts all non-normal hits;

minimums are still in effect

I would like to see sof 'thrive'. As long as you guys can barely kill one country a day, I think that's a good thing. Alliances will have to think long and hard (that's what she said) before getting in a war.

SoF/SoL/MD/LaF will be the only alliance that can war properly. Any small alliance will mean it needs to call in allies. Perhaps this is a good thing for those 4 big alliances. Especially for SoF and SoL who love to war, they will be called into every war possible by their smaller allies.

I decided to do some spreadsheet math.

My conclusions is that the 0.7% DR penalty should be lowered to as low as 0.2% or 0.3% instead, otherwise it will take just over 800-1000 turns to kill a country at a "reasonable speed" (about 3-5 minutes, any faster just costs even more turns). Duna/Lucifer/Sov/Crest are correct in this regard, that only the larger alliances can field that many turns in a single warchat. I still think this is a good change, but I think the % is way overdone.


Due to this DR change, the NW Ratio penalty change should just not be in at all, and removed completely. I believe it has the possibility of causing wars to stagnate with the larger alliance (in NW) being unable to outgrow the smaller one at all. The DR on specials already will slow down wars in itself by about half.

How many hits would a 30 second kill run take at those numbers Xin? Or a 2 minute one?

Also QZ, if you do decide that the changes were overdone or wrong, I hope you arent scared to hotfix the servers that have started already. Alliance obviously wont be far enough along for it to have affected it.

@Locket: The number of hits for a 30 sec kill run is the same as that for a 1 min kill run.

My numbers suggest the following:

For a 40k pop country (GS):
290 hits (4.8 min at 60 hits/min)
376 hits (2.9 min at 130 hits/min)
472 hits (<1 min)

For a 300k pop country (GS):
392 hits (6.53 min at 60 hits/min)
542 hits (4.17 min at 130 hits/min)
1406 hits (<1 min)

The above assumes GS kills 3% pop (in the absence of any factor), with a min pop kill of 5 pop. If I use BRs with 2.5% assumption and a min pop kill of 10, this becomes:

For a 40k pop country (BR):
300 hits (5.0 min at 60 hits/min)
381 hits (2.93 min at 130 hits/min)
454 hits (<1 min)

For a 300k pop country (BR):
422 hits (7.03 min at 60 hits/min)
583 hits (4.48 min at 130 hits/min)
1410 hits (<1 min)

I think the kill durations are too long, and need to be reduced to half the times here in my estimate. Also note the numbers are in HITS, not TURNS.

mmm is 7 mins so unreasonable? they used to be 10-15 mins sometimes back in the day

I have no problem hotfixing, assuming we're not mid-war or something already. I worked out the original math with Xinhuan though, so it should be reasonable for a 5min KR...

I'll test it a bit more in AlphaFFA, and will adjust, or not, based on that

You'll never kill me now :p

so it makes wars other then just kill / kill / kill

what is wrong with that?

How can you even cripple a country if the run is suppose to take 5-7 minutes? Anyone who can wall a kill run without taking much damage can do the same for ABs. Are we supposed to do 4 runs just to AB one guy?

Well with the old special attack damage restored "walling" is a little different. Even if you get defenses back up if someone has more units to attack with they can keep dealing out the damage.

Testing in alphaffa so far has 615 hits for 260k pop in 15 seconds

Hmm my formula's very off then, that or the "Troop:Pop" ratio factor wasn't reverted and as the target's troops reached 0, he took more damage (was this the same thing as the reverted ramping up factor?).

If I change it so that I assume GSes kill 4% pop instead, AND round up/down every turn's pop killed (I hadn't done any pop rounding in previous cases), I get the following with 0.7% DR per hit:

For a 260k pop country (GS - 4% per hit rounded up every hit):
290 hits (4.83 min at 60 hits/min)
388 hits (2.98 min at 130 hits/min)
601 hits (<1 min)

For a 260k pop country (GS - 4% per hit rounded down every hit):
290 hits (4.83 min at 60 hits/min)
388 hits (2.98 min at 130 hits/min)
626 hits (<1 min)

So rounding up/down only affected the number of hits in the very fast kill.

Does this new estimate better match what is expected for a slower kill? Under the OLD formula with no DR and no ramping up last year, still assuming 4% per hit rounded down, the same 260k pop country would have take 215 turns to kill.

The numbers will be a bit off since I didn't take any NW difference between the attacker/defender isn't taken into account.

This looks reasonably better since the number of hits needed isn't all that excessive unless you wanted to kill in less than a minute, but I think qzjul will need to script a test up to have a country attack exactly once per second on the alpha servers to simulate the "60 hits/min" scenario.

However, I think 290-388 hits for a kill that will last between 3-5 minutes in this estimated case, is still nearly 34%-80% more hits than the old oneusing only 215 hits to kill, this by itself will lengthen wars by a similar amount of time since every clan will kill slower and kill less countries. (This of course weakens the FS as well.)

If so, I think the 0.7% DR factor can still be tweaked down a little to 0.6%, this causes all the above estimates to drop to 284, 362 and 494 hits respectively. 494 hits is still going to take about 1152 turns to run.

I tried halving the amount of time for the DR from 60 seconds to 30 seconds, keeping the original 0.7% DR. This means the DR is a constant 30 after the first 30 hits for the 60 hits/min case, and 65 for the 130 hits/min case:

For a 260k pop country (GS - 4% per hit rounded down every hit):
256 hits (4.26 min at 60 hits/min)
305 hits (2.35 min at 130 hits/min)
626 hits (<1 min)

Yay, building expenses lowered!!!

That's all I care about. You guys can take ten years to kill each other in alliance server for all I care. Lol