Yea, that part was reverted.



Yea, I ran one on the 260k pop with the fast-DR turned off, and got 238 hits

Hmm... 1152 turns at .06% is doable for an alliance RDs size although it would be nice if it was a bit closer to 1000 but at least it isnt too crazy....

Out of curiosity, did QZ answer whether tech that is given to a restart is a ratio of what you had before or whether it is based off the % you had?

My personal take...

the increased difficulty to kill countries is an interesting concept. It will change the way alliance leaders run warchats and the a totally different approach to winning wars will be born. It makes the game interesting, so I'm not complaining.

But I'm kinda against the military losses multiplier. You have already made war longer and more difficult to decide sooner by implementing the longer kill runs, why would you want to penalize bigger countries somemore? A kill run is now going to take longer and also takes much more military! That's a double whammy.

Also, this takes away bottomfeeding as a viable strategy in 1a since you lose up to 27% military sent per SS/PS vs 8% in the past . If this move isn't to nerf bottomfeeding, I don't know what is. Reducing build cost together with the military multiplier will just promote landtrading again. If that's your real objective, then I can see where you're coming from. Everyone will either be all-ex or landtrading.

And the spies, they are already WAY overpowered and you are going to make them stronger?! So a losing alliance just needs to build up countries with ridiculous SPAL and they can rewrite the results of the war by bombing structures all day long since killing is a lot harder now and crippling is the way to go? It doesn't make sense IMO.

I'm not sure if anyone feels the same but I would like to propose the following:
a) remove the military multiplier
b) nerf spy ops instead of strengthening it

The NW Ratio penalty really needs to be removed. A country that is 12x the size won't be able to really kill off a suicider country without extreme losses. At the extreme end, every attack you make, you lose 27.7% of your attacking force per hit (364% of 8%).

Now consider you're doing say 1 BR hit on a country and the break is 110k jets to break 100k turrets. If the attacker loses 27.7% jets per hit, and the defender loses 5% turrets per hit, and the attacker ONLY sends the minimum break for every hit (+ 10% to account for the pang factor), then after 40 hits.

Attacker losses: 535k jets
Defender losses: 87.2k turrets

Old Attacker losses (flat 8% attacker loss): 154k jets
The break is 14.1k jets at this point, with the defender having 12.8k turrets.

This is problematic in that it now takes almost 6x the resources (if jets and turrets are equally priced on the market) to kill off a suicider that hovers at the bottom NW range. I haven't even factored in the oil cost yet.

Oldman I agree on the spyops. Some of them are down right ridiculous while some of them still dont serve too much of a purpose in war or netting.

Two resets ago I got myself an 1100 spal and proceeded to do 40-50 successful ops on Mdevol and Dragon? destroying like tons of spies and troops. It was pretty damn destructive. 1100 was a bit crazy but meh.

This is a bit low number. In a real KR alot of countries has big NW difference, so should be more than 250 hits.
And well, anyways. I want to see your math. 260K pop in 238 hits is about 3,6% per attack. With 3.6% per attack 260K pop with 0.7% reduce needs about 800 hits to kill. How it happened you killed in 615 hits? Something is wrong math then.t

I like the changes, but medical tech should be useful for attacking as well. I don't get why the building cost changes were reverted, it's like qz and Co decided to go with all the threads that were created whining about building costs and not with the plain facts that it did almost nothing to ending networths.

Not that I play 1A, but you have thought through the consequences of this on lemming right?

"1b) Military Damage
Military damage will have a multiplier added which will adjust damage based on square root of networthA/networthB; the larger opponent will have the multiplier applied to their losses; this means for a target half your size, you will lose 40% more; for 10x, about 3x more"

It's a % of the points you had.

This is on actual KR's in alphaffa

Yes, for DH's up it doesn't affect the losses as much.

I think some people are misinterpreting the spy change. If I'm reading him correctly, he said it was a boost to the *minimum* chance of getting an op through. So, it only changes the very lower end of the spectrum, someone with 500 spies trying to spy on someone with 1,000,000 spies now has a 0.5% chance of getting through instead of a 0.25% chance of getting through, for example. If it's only touching that minimum mark, and not the rest of the formula, then any other spy op isn't impacted.

I just tested on alphaffa, the NW Ratio penalty only applies for larger countries attacking smaller ones (and it applies to SS/PS as well).

So a smaller country trying to lemming a larger one doesn't suffer less losses (nothing changed basically).

Then something is wrong with programm part. Are you understand what real results do not correspond with theoretical part?

Maybe your formula isn't quite on? 3.6% might be off depending on the number of 5 civs? I welcome you to try it on alphaffa...?

A test made by a clan member said that when perfectly NW matched, a tyranny kills 4.8% population (4.0% + 20% extra being a Tyranny) on a GS.

When attacking someone about half in NW size, the defender lost about 2.2% pop per hit, or about 1.8% before the Tyr bonus.

@Duna You do know the pop killed is a function of the attacker and defender's NW right? It isn't a fixed 3.6%, or 4%, or whatever, it changes during a kill run as NW changes on both sides, and units and pop die.

qzjul, its aproximation. Every attack is max of 3.6% pop and 5. This gives near to 236 hits from 260K population. Then i add 0.7% reduce as 1*0.007, 0.993*0.007, 0,986049*0.007 and so on. Seems correct for me. I can try it on alpha, but i cant see programm part and see if it made correctly. Idk, maybe you made it 6 sec instead of 60. It could give around 600 attacks i think. Also, i have problem with alpha - its kinda hard to count attack numbers for me, because i cant make queries to DB.


I know Xinhuan, i just made aproximation to see numbers. Atm im not trying to get exact info, i just want to see numbers.

You can idle in #alphaffa and count them there

And yea, i know what you mean Duna, except quite a few were 5 civ hits, which aren't affected...

I think the .07 should be scaled back a bit personally... I'm fine to test stuff out but that is quite drastic.

The spy change is annoying since I thought they were strong already but I dont overly care.

The "lemming" change is the one that is really bothersome and I think should be removed. You are just punishing people for growing their countries well, making lemmings easier, and making any form of low kills or bottomfeeding FAR more expensive for the attacker.



@crest if you didnt think the building cost increase affected ending NWs than you are worse at this game than anyone thought. It had a fairly significant affect.

It doesn't affect lemmings really though; DH's up it has significantly reduced effectiveness.

So how much stronger is it than before though? I dislike vague answers.. if it is similar to before then I guess it isnt a huge deal.

I still think the bigger issue than lemming is hitting down in nw by both grabs and GS/BR. If the #'s quoted in this thread by Xin? I think it was are right then it is just ridiculous at the farthest nw differences.

Attacker losses: 535k jets
Defender losses: 87.2k turrets

That is just stupid. Why any differences that big should appear based on code and not tech just blows my mind.

Never knew tyrannies did more damage... I thought that was just land gains.

LOL

Not damage, they have +20% to gains. For GS/BR gains is civ dead.

What crack are you smoking? You must share with us.

Perhaps you would know that it did actually affect NWs if you ever got past 2 mill nw ;)

Plus food and buildings destroyed. Gets even better with military strategy as well.

Yeah, that's what I meant by damage. Mil strat affects civs/buildings/food killed too? Wow, y'all rocking my world with this.

bonus. also, blid... it sounds a lot like you've not done enough killing with either tyrs or strat my good man! come play with us in team server sometime :)

on topic, i'm a little perplexed by the increased minimum spy success rate. with 10x the spal of my attacker in primary i was losing out huge amounts to harmful ops already. i guess we'll see how this pans out and what the threshold affected is, but it doesn't seem logical.

But if it's only minimum rate, it has no effect on people with better or similar SPAL doing harmful ops on you. It only changes it so you can get an op through on someone with great SPAL using your crappy SPAL 2 out of 100 times instead of 1 out of 100 times, or at least that's who I interpret it

I softened the military damage multiplier to cube root and reduced the fast-DR time-length to 45 seconds after more extended testing in alphaffa.

qzjul, its alot better to lower multiplier than time, i.e. leave 60 seconds, but lower to like 0.5-0.6%.

And we still dont know, how 236 pure hits transformed to 600 hits with timeDR....

Can you give some numbers as to how that change affects things QZ? # of hits and # of turrets/jets lost over time etc?

well the number of hits would be the same for kills < 45 seconds; beyond that it shortens the runs considerably; in terms of the turrets/jets basically:

sqrt looks like this
9.0 3.00
8.0 2.83
7.0 2.65
6.0 2.45
5.0 2.24
4.0 2.00
3.0 1.73
2.0 1.41
1.5 1.22
1.3 1.14
1.0 1.00

and cube root looks like this:

9.0 2.08
8.0 2.00
7.0 1.91
6.0 1.82
5.0 1.71
4.0 1.59
3.0 1.44
2.0 1.26
1.5 1.14
1.3 1.09
1.0 1.00

did i read wrong or does it say no more ramping damages?

if so, then its wrong because my AB's are all ramping... you can check XI's news in FFA for the proof

read 1a

FFA server reset started on Aug 4. This change was announced on Aug 6. So the changes are not active on FFA until the start of the next reset on Oct 4.

Basically, Team, Express and Alliance are on changeset 10. The others are still on changeset 9.

ahhh gotcha

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Evo/Monsters/SoL FSed SoF today on Alliance, barely 100 turns out of protecction. There are 1921 hits on 8 non-land killed countries with 88k civilians slaughtered.

This equates to 237 hits per kill, on countries that average to 11k pop each. This means the countries killed had about 1.4k acres, because each acre of land supports about 8 pop without res tech/buildings.

The kill runs averaged 54 seconds for 6 of the 8 countries that took shorter than 5 minutes to kill, so almost all 6 of them had nearly full pop-DR in effect.

The other 2 countries took "28 minutes" and "10 hours" (in quote to avoid being read as 10h 28m) to kill and took 215 averaged hits to kill an averaged 8.4k pop.

Did you only pick the GS/BRs I assume and not any ABs/grab kills?

Yes. It would be silly to include the land kills and/or the 800+ ABs, or the 3 or so countries that successfully walled.

I guess I should assume you never take the lazy and bad way. At least QZ will get lots of first hand experience with his changes.

So is it a good change or a bad change?

Probably good.

lol, no way its good.

It's bad for wars I guess. Pretty lousy killing for now

How do you define bad or good for wars? Would making CM's kill a country in a single hit be good for wars, because it makes killing easy? Is it not possible that making things a little more complicated can make things interesting?

The Sol+Evo+Monsters vs SoF war I think is too small scale to give an accurate picture of how these changes effect war.

So far though there hasn't been any undying lone warrior able to absorb infinite hits while an alliance grinds itself into oblivion attempting to kill. It will be interesting to see how the changes scale.

However, on the military damage change. I am waiting to see the first suicider that along with the suicide damage now eats up an alliances jets. This causing the alliance to no longer be able to retal leading them to being farmed.